Psycroptic or Deranged

[R.I.P.2]

*long post*

I can see where you're coming from, but you didn't give examples of metal bands which DO have these qualities - because there aren't (m)any as you pretty much admitted - so criticising Psycroptic for being like the vast majority of metal bands seems a little strange.

Of course Classical is generally going to have more advanced compositional techniques and thematic development than metal, but I don't really think that's something to hold against metal.

 

[skeptik]

Maybe the kind of music you listen to.

Trust me, I listen to plenty of the pseudo intellectual bullshit that you deem so superior to all else, and also a good deal of Classical music. So in my opinion, "Music = entertainment" applies to you too.

Why would you listen to something if it didn't entertain you? Unless of course you just want to fit in with the rest of the ANUS forum.

 

[no country for old wainds]

All my favourite music entertains me, it's just generally not my sole reason for listening to it.

 

[Necro Joe]

Wonderful, now why don't you back track a page and answer my question?

 

[AsModEe]

You're an idiot.

I am Ron Burgundy?

 

[no country for old wainds]

I play piano and drums but I'm hardly a theory expert (though I'm in the process of studying it).

 

[Necro Joe]

So why are you acting like you have an in depth knowledge of musical composition?

 

[Jean-Pierre]

Why would you listen to something if it didn't entertain you? Unless of course you just want to fit in with the rest of the ANUS forum.

Plain and simple, fuck off nowadays artfags.

 

[Necro Joe]

I'll start by stating what a substantial idea is not, and in this case I'll use Psycroptic as an example. The aim of Psycroptic's music is to impress and cause easily amused metalheads to go "OMFG, what crazy music!!" How is their music not of this type? It's clear that Psycroptic doesn't pay much attention to compositional quality or coherency.

Well OK this tells me nothing except that you don’t like them.

Their songs seem to flow only because of the fact that a given song of theirs revolves around a single key center with deviations from the key center achieved through chromaticism. Their music sounds like it almost follows some logical order because any song with riff after riff revolving around the same key center will sound semi-coherent.

What is a ‘logical order’?

What I described above would be fine if Psycroptic songs actually developed in some way. They don't develop, they are riff collections.

What do you mean by ‘develop’?

Stating a theme, and then proceeding to insert a mish-mash of riffs that don't develop from the original theme, and then restating the original riff at some later point in the song does not make a song unified or logical.

What do you mean by a ‘theme’?

As far as their riffs are concerned, the bulk of them consist of melodies unrelated to one another or fast scale runs which aren't musical statements.

What is a ‘musical statement’?

The quality in music that I'm referring to is something other than speed, technicality, and other visceral aspects found in much metal. It refers to the quality of the composition. Psycroptic's music is barely composed, it's riff-collection material like I already stated.

Do you realise that this explains NOTHING in terms of actual music? I know they use collections of riffs, I’ve heard the music. What does this add/detract from the overall quality of the composition and why?

Substantial music expresses ideas which come in the form of musical statements and phrases. Riff collections are not good compositions because they are not truly composed.

Could you explain ‘ideas’?

Well composed music does not pander to base-minded expectations such as complexity, technicality, speed, heaviness, etc. In general, any good art is equal parts cerebral and emotional, NOT masturbatory.

You can throw these terms around all you want but since none of them relate to the music you aren’t likely to convince anyone. I am honestly, truly interested to see if the judgements you guys make about songs are rooted in tangible musical theory or if they come from the same place mine do, but are just jazzed up with pretty language.

 

[no country for old wainds]

So why are you acting like you have an in depth knowledge of musical composition?

I'm not. It's obvious, however, that Necrophagist are far more intelligent than Psycroptic. They repeat and develop with subtlety, they change tempo as the melodic ideas develop rather than at uber-frequent random intervals to give it a more technical (I prefer to call it 'stuttery' and/or 'gay') vibe, the transitions between riffs are far less jarring and illogical, etcetc.

 

[Necro Joe]

How can it be obvious when you continue to use expressions like 'develop' and insist on referring to music as illogical without any explanation at all? Am I supposed to accept that Psycroptic's 'musical ideas' are inferior to Necrophagist's when I'm not even sure what 'ideas' it is you are talkng about?

 

[Cythraul]

What is a ‘logical order’?

Musical ideas which develop upon one another i.e. two melodies which are related either by inversion, extension, transposition to another interval or another key, etc.,etc.,etc.!!!!!! NOT A CLUSTERFUCK OF RIFFS THAT ARE NOT THEMATICALLY RELATED!!!

What do you mean by ‘develop’?

Music which, in part, does what I mentioned above but which also has a coherent beginning, middle, and end. Exposition: principle themes are stated. Development: principle themes are developed, new material is introduced. Recapitulation: principle themes are restated, piece modulates back to the original key.

What do you mean by a ‘theme’?

A melody/phrase which acts as a principle expressive component of a particular piece. In other words, the main melody or group of melodies.

What is a ‘musical statement’?

That's my personal way of referring to a definable theme (melody, musical idea, riff) as opposed to a common, uninspired scale exercise.

Do you realise that this explains NOTHING in terms of actual music? I know they use collections of riffs, I’ve heard the music. What does this add/detract from the overall quality of the composition and why?

ALL I'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS MUSIC! In terms of coherent composition which DEVELOPS, it is not good. As I explained before, Psycroptics riffs are not thematically related or developed. It's cut & paste in the same key.

Could you explain ‘ideas’?

idea: Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity.

This clearly implies that an idea requires a certain level of cognitive process. However, a scale run can be an idea but given it's nature as generic and recycled it's not a very original or inspired idea.

You can throw these terms around all you want but since none of them relate to the music you aren’t likely to convince anyone. I am honestly, truly interested to see if the judgements you guys make about songs are rooted in tangible musical theory or if they come from the same place mine do, but are just jazzed up with pretty language.

How does my use of musical terminology to talk about MUSIC not relate to the music? And yes, I've studied music theory at great length. I'm not just throwing "pretty language" around.

 

[Death Aflame]

How 'bout we all just listen to music for our own reasons and stop trying to make ourselves sound smart by asserting said reasons as something objective?

Regardless of the intentions of the music's creators, each fan can find their own reasons to enjoy any piece of music. Some types of music don't have to be "well composed" in the traditional sense to be effective in creating an emotional response, which is an important part of music to many people.

The notion that people are worse off for understanding how music "should be" composed because they haven't studied it in a class is fucking pathetic, and contrary to true innovation. If we are to take the tenets of classical music composition to be the best way of composing metal songs, anything we percieve as innovation will have to fall within that framework.

Very well said.

 

[Demilich]

longwinded counter-rant

All you're really demonstrating is that you seem to hold classical theory as the epitome of how metal songs should be written and structured.

Exposition, development, recapitulation? Sounds more like essay writing than songwriting to me. Why would we want to impose limitations to the structure of songs just because this is how we're taught that this is how music should be written? This is just an arbitrary formula decided upon a long time ago by who knows who. How would you expect music to progress in a world where every artist followed these rules?

 

[Cythraul]

All you're really demonstrating is that you seem to hold classical theory as the epitome of how metal songs should be written and structured.

Exposition, development, recapitulation? Sounds more like essay writing than songwriting to me. Why would we want to impose limitations to the structure of songs just because this is how we're taught that this is how music should be written? This is just an arbitrary formula decided upon a long time ago by who knows who. How would you expect music to progress in a world where every artist followed these rules?

Metal songs don't have to develop in that manner. I'm just explaining what I consider to be the epitome of good form. Classical form is not arbitrary. It came into being through a couple centuries of development. Metal's been around for what, like three decades. If you don't want to accept that there could be a way of writing music that is more highly developed, sophisticated, etc., etc. then that's your prerogative. I like when music progresses, but it has to have good form. I DO NOT LIKE CLUSTERFUCKS OF RIFFS PASTED ONE AFTER THE OTHER WITH NO RHYME OR REASON.

 

[Episteme]

I'm not. It's obvious, however, that Necrophagist are far more intelligent than Psycroptic. They repeat and develop with subtlety, they change tempo as the melodic ideas develop rather than at uber-frequent random intervals to give it a more technical (I prefer to call it 'stuttery' and/or 'gay') vibe, the transitions between riffs are far less jarring and illogical, etcetc.

Hmm...I can see where you're coming from. I do find that Necrophagist has far better song structures than Psycroptic. I think it also comes from the aesthetic of the bands though. While Necrophagist are mind bendingly technical, their riffs tend to be related yet not repeated... and of course the solos are supposed to be awe-inspiring.

Psycroptic has a "LET'S PUT RIFFS TOGETHER AND ROCK OUT", and I like that aspect of them. There are alot of intervals in their music and is why they're a great live band. Also they use a tonal centre to base their riffs because it somehow makes them catchy as hell because it sounds like they're repeating. Psycroptic just kick ass, nothing more to it.

 

[R.I.P.2]

Right, Cythraul, except for the fact that no metal band uses sonata form. Stop applying classical terminology to metal and, worse, criticising metal for not sharing these classical qualities.

 

[Cythraul]

Right, Cythraul, except for the fact that no metal band uses sonata form. Stop applying classical terminology to metal and, worse, criticising metal for not sharing these classical qualities.

I already said that metal bands don't have to use the kind of form I described. That would be interesting though. There are metal bands that use a much more simplified version of a sonata form. I was simply giving an example of what I consider to be the epitome of good form. I'm sick of repeating myself. My basic point is this: I DO NOT LIKE CLUSTERFUCKS OF RIFFS PASTED ONE AFTER THE OTHER WITH NO RHYME OR REASON.

 

[R.I.P.2]

"I DO NOT LIKE CLUSTERFUCKS OF RIFFS PASTED ONE AFTER THE OTHER WITH NO RHYME OR REASON."

If that had been your initial response to this thread there would have been no dispute. =)

 

[Cythraul]

End of thread.

Edit: the reason I carried on with my argument in the first place is that people were asking me the reasons for what I said in my first post, including you.