Putting criminals back in society vs holding them in prison for punishment.

[Dak]

It is not primarily for relief to the family and friends of the deceased/raped. That is a by product.

The focus is restitution. In a theft situation, you would have an equal or greater payback to bring the victim back to his/her former status.

Since in the case of murder/rape, it is impossible to bring the victim back to his/her former state, the penalty should be equal (for murder), or relative (rape) for an equally horrendous crime.

The statements on the death sentence being more of a deterrent when executed more expediently and publicly are also true in my opinion, but also secondary in my position.

 

[skeptik]

I'm just glad that in my lifetime the US will most likely federally ban use of the death penalty.

 

[V.V.V.V.V.]

Yeah, but then it should reinstate public stonings and gallows executions.

 

[Dak]

I'm just glad that in my lifetime the US will cease to be a relevant world power.

FYP.

 

[Mort Divine]

I'd rather 10 guilty men run free, than for us to execute a single innocent person.

There are people who are sentenced to death and have been later found innocent, that alone is reason enough to not have such an archaic punishment in place.

 

[Dak]

I'd rather 10 guilty men run free, than for us to execute a single innocent person.

There are people who are sentenced to death and have been later found innocent, that alone is reason enough to not have such an archaic punishment in place.

Well hell, let's just not have any sort of justice system, it's obviously not fair to punish an innocent person in any fashion, so let's make sure that doesn't happen by never punishing anyone because they might all be innocent.



Your "bleeding heart" idealogy is ignorant, it is an unsustainable way for a society to function.

 

[hibernal_dream]

I don't feel that the satisfaction of the victimized party is the necessary duty to be fulfilled by punishment or whatever is done as response to crime X. That is petty.

Why not? It's not just the satisfaction of the victimized party that we're concerned with, but for society as a whole. What faith in a government can people have when they feel that there is no justice? They need to feel there is some sort of justice proportionate to the seriousness of the crime and that the conviction resulted in some sort of reasonable outcome. Surely you can see that this is necessary if only practically. If not we will have frustrated bands of people turning to criminal/civil disobedience.

 

[Mort Divine]

Well hell, let's just not have any sort of justice system, it's obviously not fair to punish an innocent person in any fashion, so let's make sure that doesn't happen by never punishing anyone because they might all be innocent.



Your "bleeding heart" idealogy is ignorant, it is an unsustainable way for a society to function.

No, it is not ignorant. I never claimed that we should not punish anyone, but that we should not have the death penalty due to the risk of innocents being killed.

Even in our current system where the people may sit on death row for 10+ years, leaving time for evidence to be found, it is still better to toss out the chance for an innocent to be killed even once.

Life imprisonment is far more acceptable since it can be reversed, whereas death cannot be.

 

[Dak]

Life imprisonment is far more acceptable since it can be reversed, whereas death cannot be.

Yeah, you can totally hand a guy back years-decades of lost freedom.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

The idea of the death penalty being used as a means of "justice" IS, in fact, petty. What exactly are the victimized party and society accomplishing from the knowledge of said criminals being executed? Incarceration prevents violent criminals from having any further effect on society so how is their death going to come with any sort of benefits other than the mental satisfaction of the victimized party? It seems as though people who support the death penalty have yet to address this.

 

[Dak]

The idea of the death penalty being used as a means of "justice" IS, in fact, petty. What exactly are the victimized party and society accomplishing from the knowledge of said criminals being executed? Incarceration prevents violent criminals from having any further effect on society so how is their death going to come with any sort of benefits other than the mental satisfaction of the victimized party? It seems as though people who support the death penalty have yet to address this.

Have you not read the last couple of pages? Your points have already been brought up and answered, whether or not to your agreement.

 

[skeptik]

Why not? It's not just the satisfaction of the victimized party that we're concerned with, but for society as a whole. What faith in a government can people have when they feel that there is no justice? They need to feel there is some sort of justice proportionate to the seriousness of the crime and that the conviction resulted in some sort of reasonable outcome. Surely you can see that this is necessary if only practically. If not we will have frustrated bands of people turning to criminal/civil disobedience.

Non-stupid people do not receive satisfaction and a sense of justice at the death of a person that poses no threat to other people. Also, most of the civilized world seems to do pretty fine without it. And by most I mean, obviously, pretty much everybody except the US.

 

[CF87]

Should shitloads of guilty people be let out of jail or not get the death penatly because every 20 years acouple innocent people get the death penalty. The system is designed to keep the world civil as a whole and can't be perfect.

I'm not the smartest guy or anything, but seriously use your fucking head.

Luckily the world does not think like some of you because we'd all have guns and bars on our windows regardless where we live. I personally like to go outside.

 

[CF87]

OH GOD SOME INNOCENT GUY IS ON DEATH ROW!!!!!!!!!!!! OH NO. Society is gone to shit and all I care about is some inncent person on deathrow.

 

[Dak]

Non-stupid people do not receive satisfaction and a sense of justice at the death of a person that poses no threat to other people.

No threat to other people? What are you talking about?

Non-stupid people care about the restitution of victims and accurate punishment of the criminal, not supposed rights of the bad elements of society.

Also, most of the civilized world seems to do pretty fine without it. And by most I mean, obviously, pretty much everybody except the US.

That's a grossly vague and generalized statement, not to mention one that is only defined by personal opinion.

 

[The Ozzman]

In before someone posts recidivism rates for comparison

 

[Dak]

In before someone posts recidivism rates for comparison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism

[edit] Nationwide
The recidivism rate for prisoners released from prison within one year is 44.1%; this number rises to 67.5% within three years of being released from prison. Sixty-seven percent of the people who were rearrested were charged with 750,000 new crimes, which include property offenses, drug offenses, public-order offenses, other offences, unknown, and over 100,000 of these crimes were violent crimes. Of the new violent crimes committed, 2,871 were murder and 2,444 were rape. [1] Male prisoners are exposed and subject to sexual and physical violence in prisons today. Each year, as many as 70% of inmates in prisons are assaulted by another inmate. When these events occur, the victim usually suffers emotionally and/or physically. Further, leading the inmate to accept these types of behaviors and value their life and the lives of others less when they are released. These dehumanizing acts combined with the learned violent behavior have much influence in the causes of recidivism. [13]

This goes back to my "putting a bad apple in a barrel of bad apples doesn't turn it into a good apple" arguement.

 

[skeptik]

People who are in prison for life don't get released from prison. This goes back to my "you are a fucking stupid person" arguement.

No threat to other people? What are you talking about?

Under normal conditions, who are people who are in prison for life threatening? Either people who are in prison voluntarily (prison guards) or people who are in prison involuntarily (other prison inmates). The general public is not at risk, which is the primary intention of the prison system. And there are many things that can and should be done to reduce prison violence. Citing prison violence as an argument in favor of the death penalty is really stretching.

Non-stupid people care about the restitution of victims and accurate punishment of the criminal, not supposed rights of the bad elements of society.

Murder is not restitution, nor is it "accurate punishment."

That's a grossly vague and generalized statement, not to mention one that is only defined by personal opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capital_punishment_by_nation

 

[Dak]

I find it sadly ironic that you consider just execution murder, but not abortion.

We aren't debating whether or not someone is life threatening because they are in jail, or whether the prison system reduces risk of violence to the general public while criminals are incarcerated. Nice red herrings.

You are classifying just execution as murder, which it is not. Obviously it isn't "restitution", because you cannot give victim of murder his life back(or un-violate them in the case of rape). Which is why you pay with your life. It is a perfectly accurate and equal punishment.

Your link to the wiki article on CP use does not prove anything, other than what countries do or do not use the death penalty. It does not prove abolishment "works", or that countries are more or less successful for using it/not using it.

 

[Manic Ferocity]

Have you not read the last couple of pages? Your points have already been brought up and answered, whether or not to your agreement.

My post was more to get you and others to address what exactly the benefits of the death penalty would be. "They deserve it" or "it's in the best wishes of the victimized party and society" aren't very valid "benefits."