QuadTrakcking w/ Profire... PLEASE help me.

[Element77]

I about to eat a shotgun...

I got a 610, to replace a EMU0404. And I've had nothing but issues. Unless I'm an idiot I don't ever recall this problem before. I put a little test here (excuse the riff, just wanted to show the problem.)

When I record (in Sonar), I do 4 guitars. (100, 75) I'm using TSS, Lecto, and Gregs beta, that's all. I have everything at 12 o'clock (minus drive on the TSS, at 0) No eq's except HP and LP. The only difference between the 100 and 75 channel, is the 75 is -2db lower.

If I record the 100 and 75 at the same time, it sounds big (but still with some sort of odd phasey-ness to it.) But if I record the separately, there is a big drop in sound and almost sounds completly out of phase.

I recorded 4 bars together, 4 bars separate to show the difference, and then w/ no drums. If someone has had this issue, or knows where I'm going wrong, please help. I don't ever recall there being this big of a difference before.

James

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/6003128/StupidThing-M-Audio.mp3

 

[if6was9]

You're not supposed to record them at the same time, you record 4 different takes.

 

[Deebo]

4 different takes 2 different tones. Guitar take 1 Pan 100R Tone A - Guitar take 2 Pan 80R Tone B. Guitar take 3 Pan 100L Tone A - Guitar take 4 Pan 80L Tone B.

 

[Element77]

I understand that, that's what I usually do, but it seems like a major drop off in the smaple i posted from recording 2 at once vs. recording 1 take at a time. Basically what Im asking in the sample, is there some sort of phase issue that I'm running into while doing it the correct way, that someone can hear, or is that "just the way it is."

 

[Fox Mulder]

^ The reasons could be:

1. You're not playing tight enough.
2. The tones aren't well blended.

 

[if6was9]

Are you using the effects as an insert or sending them all to a bus with the effects on that? You should be using them as inserts on each track separately.
You can't get phase issues from different takes. Phase issues happen when you've got 1 source and 2 reproductions of it which cancel and combine at different frequencies. You can't get a phase issue between 2 sources

 

[Element77]

Im recording using 4 different inputs, all with their own set of inserts, then bussed down to a master bus, with nothing but HP/LP. I guess I shouldn't of said "phase", it seems more "hollow" then anything else. I don't think it's an issue of playing tight, that's why I made the test so simple, to illustrate the difference. Before with my 0404, it didn't matter, i could run the same way, and it didn't matter if I recorded 2 tracks at once, or each track as a separate take, the volume did not drop like it does now. And asking M-Audio forums, I might as well go to Taco Bell for answers. I'm just asking to see if there's someone else out there with a Profire that's had these issues, or what could be the issues.

 

[mburton21]

So you are using one take as 2 tracks, panned HL/L and another HR/R?

The whole point of quadtracking is layering the slight differences and subtleties that come with layering guitars that way to get nice and thick tones.

Using the same take for each side (100/75 being the same exact take) doesn't give that effect, it only boosts the volume by... I think it is 3dB? So it would be more along the lines of dual tracking, pasting the take into a new track and applying different distortion/whatever to it. (I never use ampsims so I have never dealt with that, only effects like reverb etc on a send bus)

I could have misunderstood your posts, it is really early here

 

[Force666]

I'm sure it has something to do with the latency while running amp sims.
There's going to generally be more latency with a firewire device rather than a pci.

 

[Element77]

I'm still stumped. I'm running the profire with about 3.2ms latency, which is far less then the 6-7ms I had to run the EMU at. If I ran the EMU that low. Drop out city. Im curious that maybe a firewire driver or something. Just seems really hollow.

 

[joeymusicguy]

the difference between the two sections is that the first half is doubled in volume

whatever you did with the second half... turn it up +6 db. it will be the same as the first half.

 

[Element77]

Yea... something is definatly wrong, I'll post something later but, I recorded 2 tracks at the same time. Both using different inserts (1-TSS,X30,LeCab the other - TSS, SoloC, Lecab) If I am just playing not recording, and i pan one hard left, and one hard right, it sounds "big" just for the fact that you can hear a slight bit of latency in one channel, bizzare. So i recorded this, and as i recorded I automated the left channel to pan slowly and blend into the right channel. As soon as it starts panning, and by the time it hits 100% right, it becomes an inaudible mess, like 10 fuzz pedals chained to each other. This fucking thing, I'm hoping it has nothing to do with the firewire card, cause i don't need to go buy a third.. (Guitar Center jerkoffs....) I wonder if i could be an IRQ conflict, or something stupid. but this isn't gonna fly.

 

[Jind]

I may be completely wrong as I've never had an issue like this in Sonar, but I'm wondering if it could be related to your Pan Law setting - Sonar has options for 6 different pan laws if I recall correctly. While these normally are adjustable for moving a project from one DAW to another that may use a different Pan Law - perhaps on your system it has been adjusted to an extreme setting and because of the way you are recording two tracks of the same guitar then panning them differently it is causing you issues.

See this article by Craig Anderton: Panning Laws Revealed

I leave mine at the "0dB center, sin/cos taper, constant power" setting but maybe yours has gotten changed by mistake.

I may be barking up the wrong tree but if it helps then I'm glad I put it out here. Hope that perhaps it helps.

 

[ahjteam]

please answer these questions:

1) how many guitar tracks do you have in total?
2) on those tracks, how many different takes do you have?
3) how are the tracks panned



the answers should be either:

1) 4
2) 4
3) hard left, hard right, 60-80% left, 60-80% right

OR

1) 2
2) 2
3) hard left, hard right


otherwise, you made something wrong.

 

[if6was9]

Sounds like there's a difference in plug in delay times between the 2 sides so when you've got the same take panned hard left and right it sounds big- kinda like an ADT effect, where you take 1 take and delay it slightly and pan it to the opposite side. But if you have them both on the same side ( or both down the centre) you are getting phase cancellations resulting in a messy sound.

Thats whats happening when you are tracking 2 tracks at the same time.

When you're doing proper double/quad tracking it's just quieter than the doubling way you've been doing it. turn the guitars up a little and it should sound good.

Since you weren't getting these "problems" before I'd check your plugin delay compensation settings to make sure its set right

 

[Zack Uidl]

Yea... something is definatly wrong, I'll post something later but, I recorded 2 tracks at the same time. Both using different inserts (1-TSS,X30,LeCab the other - TSS, SoloC, Lecab) If I am just playing not recording, and i pan one hard left, and one hard right, it sounds "big" just for the fact that you can hear a slight bit of latency in one channel, bizzare. So i recorded this, and as i recorded I automated the left channel to pan slowly and blend into the right channel. As soon as it starts panning, and by the time it hits 100% right, it becomes an inaudible mess, like 10 fuzz pedals chained to each other. This fucking thing, I'm hoping it has nothing to do with the firewire card, cause i don't need to go buy a third.. (Guitar Center jerkoffs....) I wonder if i could be an IRQ conflict, or something stupid. but this isn't gonna fly.

That is not quad tracking. FOUR takes is quad tracking. Not what you described.


+1 to ahjteam

 

[Element77]

ahjteam,

I have 4 Tracks. (L=100,L-75,R-100,R=75) When recording for a finished product, I record 1 track at a time. The latency that I got last night puzzled me. When I get home, Ill do a quick sample, so everyone can go "Ohhhh, I see, this really does sound horrible." This profire has been in a pain since day 1. I can't even access the buffer options while I have Sonar open.

 

[Force666]

using different "chains" is going to be using different latencies. why don't you just record one track at a time and see what happens. I don't think it has anything to do with the profire.

 

[guitarguru777]

Copy your DI's to another track and PRINT your Amp Sims to the tracks. This should stop your latency issues. If it doesn't then its your playing.

1 thing I find is when troubleshooting take as much Latency out of the equation as possible. If you PRINT your guitars you will find where the issue is faster.

 

[if6was9]

ahjteam,

I have 4 Tracks. (L=100,L-75,R-100,R=75) When recording for a finished product, I record 1 track at a time. The latency that I got last night puzzled me. When I get home, Ill do a quick sample, so everyone can go "Ohhhh, I see, this really does sound horrible." This profire has been in a pain since day 1. I can't even access the buffer options while I have Sonar open.

It's not the profire, its your work method- and possibly your plugin delay compensation settings( might also be referred to as AutomaticDelayCompensation) You should only be recording 1 track at a time monitoring through 1 signal chain. Your problem is that you're recording 1 take through more than 1 signal chain which have different plug in delays. When panned to opposite sides this cause an ADT like effect, when on the same side( or both down the centre) they cause phase cancellations and sound wierd.