Question For Ron or anyone else, about his 12 Tone System

[guitarequalssex]

I was reading your lesson on the way you use 12 Tone Rows (fascinating by the way) http://www.ronjarzombek.com/rj12tone.html

Just had a few questions, in this part.

So now let's mark off 3 notes in a row starting with the C at 12:00,
then go across and grab the 3 notes across the clock. It looks like this...

Red dots = C C# D# E F# G# (almost a full half/whole tone scale)
Blue dots = G# A Bb B D F (a G# diminished 7 chord with chromatics between G# and B)

Here's what I came up with for this certain note scheme...

C, C#, D#, E, F#, G#? The note there is clearly G, which would match with the fact, that you said its a half-whole scale.

i.e 1 b2 #2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Just to get things clear also.

Your taking a tone row, aranging the notes around the circle of fifths, and finding different patterns, as you said

Every other
Skip two
Skip three
Skip four
Every other from 12
Pairs across 12
Pairs across 3

ect ect.

Have you ever found a particular pattern, or tone row, that doesnt work?

Why does it not work?

How effective is this for a use of composition, I mean you use it, and the stuff you write...

It just seems so non-structured harmonically, making sense of things from a harmony point of view, somone who new nothing about 12 Tone Rows would just be

One last question.

1# Are the patterns you can come up with in tone rows endless? As in not the tone rows themselves, but the patterns for elimenating and keeping notes.

It will certinaly give me something more exciting to do in english classes

 

[ronjarz]

The Circle Of 12 tones does not work unless you know basic music theory. I'm covering working with 12 tones exclusively on the 2nd DVD. The Circle Of 12 tones is the last chapter. The most basic thing to keep in mind is if you only work with the notes that you get in one grouping, make it work with the other groupings. Here's a quick simple example of how a collective group of chords work together...

D F# A (D major chord)
E G# B (E major chord)
Bb Db F (Bb minor chord)
C Eb G (C minor chord)

The D and E major chords fit into the key of A Major (as the IV and V chords).
The Bb and C minor chords fit into the key of Ab (as the ii and iii chords).

Notice that the keys are A major followed by Ab major, so you've got a cool decending key change happening. Also notice that the progression could be ii iii IV V, if you decide to put the chords in that order.

The examples on Laser Lobotomy give a very clear example of how things work... http://www.ronjarzombek.com/rj12tone2.html

My favorite grouping (of chords that work together) in that song is in the tune "mask" and "psycho". (The clusters are fitted into 4 different m add9 chords a m3 apart. 2 clusters are played a diminished 5th apart, then are followed by the other two clusters also a diminished 5th apart. )

Eb G D (fitted into a Cm add9 chord - C Eb G D)
G# A C# (fitted into a F#m add9 chord - F# A C# G#)
F Gb Bb (fitted into an Ebm add9 chord - Eb Gb Bb F)
B C E (fitted into an Am add9 chord - A C E B)

I guess then you could say that the best Circle Of 12 Tones "keys" (way the notes are arranged on the clock) is determined by how many cool notes patterns "happen" with various groupings. What I really like about the system is I get to work with notes arrangements/groupings that I probably wouldn't have come up with without it.

Speaking of the Circle Of 12 Tones, we are going to start writing for the next Blotted CD soon, and we are thinking about having a contest to see what Circle Of 12 Tones "keys" we use for the songs. I'll have more info on this a bit later...

 

[guitarequalssex]

I would think I know basic music theory, does anything from my post indicate I do not? If so, please alert me.

So, a brief run down on The Circle of Tones/Using the Circle of tones would be something like, just writing one up, so I can hopefully understand it, and use it properly as a compositional tool.

Taking a Tone Row, an arangment of all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, and place them around the circle of fifths, starting at 12:00 (usually) or any point you choose.

You than apply one of the many patters, included in your explanation, or any other one you wish, to generate certain patters of notes, chords, scales, ect.

Most of my Tone Rows so far, and attempt in writing with the Circle of Tones, have sounded pretty horrible.

The tone row I was messing with today was

In the order of

Db
C
Bb
D
D#
F#
A
E
G
F
B
G#

Applied the every third pattern

So I have the note groupings of

Db D A F, which I figured was a basis of D Melodic Minor

C D# E B - B Phrygian Dominant, not the whole scale obviously.

Bb F# G G# - Three chromatic tones, F# - G - G# and A#, not really classifiable into one common scale, mabey a non-western one.

So, I proceeded to make riffs with these three groupings of tones.

But unfortunatley they tunred out VERY avaragley.

Because each section of notes was one riff, and than moved onto the next riff, sometimes repeating the riff before it, it felt more like a series of modulations, mabey thats what this is meant to sound like.

If you were faced with the three groups of tones, that I gave you, what would you do with them?

What I have done? (yeah sure)

How would you approach it differently?

Do you have any secrets to coming up with interesting tone rows, or is it all simply experimentation?

Thanks very much for the reply as well.

 

[progmetaldan]

The part in all that I noticed: "New Blotted Science"...

I'm very keen to get the dvd's once you're done on those Ron, they sound like they'll be excellent!

 

[ronjarz]

Yep, sounds like you've got the idea. And so maybe the question should be what do you with the notes once you've got them divided up into various groups.

Your first group of notes is D F A C#, a Dm M7 chord. On my solo CD "Solitarily Speaking...", that is the first chord on track 2 "A Headache And A Sixty-Fourth". That's one example of what I'd do with it. The mM7 is such an interesting chord, there are tons of cool things to do with it.

C D# E B all fit into E harmonic minor. You also have two sets of m2 intervals to work with. Some really cool disgusting things to do with that.

With your last notes Bb F# G G#, here's an example of where you're stuck with three chromatics in a row, not too scale friendly. And so I'd probably break it up into two chords...

Play the progression...
Gm Ab7 (the Ab7 being the tritone substitution of D7).
Over the Gm chord play the notes G and Bb
Over the Ab7 chord play the notes G# F# (correctly spelled as Ab Gb in an Ab7 chord)

Or...
Over the C D# E B notes - play the chords Em and B7 (E harmonic minor)
Over the D F A C# notes - play the chords Dm and A7 (D harmonic minor)
Over the Bb F# G G# notes - play the Gm Ab7 progression as described above.

 

[guitarequalssex]

Mmm, I mean your classifications of the permutations of the tone circle differ, I would place 99% bet on you being right.

D F A C# is of course DMin/Maj7 dont know why I put D Melodic Minor, of course, the I chord of D Melodic Minor is Min/Maj7

B C D# E - You notated it as E Harmonic Minor, me, B Phrygian Dominant, of course were just speaking relative modes, so not much differs, can I just ask why you chose E Harmonic Minor, instead of B Phrygian Dominant

Well, If I get sorted out, exactally what to do with this group of tones, I must thankyou a lot for replying and helping me fully understand.

One of the Major ideas I had with Min/Maj7 chords is that, because disregaurding the root, the make up an Augmented Triad, Augmented Triads are completley symmetrical from the intervals of a Major 3rd, so theoretically this chord can be substituted on a Major 3rd axis, the Min/Maj7 that is.

Due to an interesting article on Minor 3rd Substitutions, by Jack Zucker I think, in it he stated all chords in any key, are basically the same chord, an over simplified view, but an interesting approach non the less.

So any chord in a Melodic/Harmonic Minor scale can be substituted on a axis of a Major Third.

If you would like to share some of the ideas you use with Maj/Min 7 chords, I definatley wont object lets say that

Getting back to the Tone Row, thanks to you, you have arranged the notes, into some lot of slightly classifiable chords/scales.

"Your first group of notes is D F A C#, a Dm M7 chord. On my solo CD "Solitarily Speaking...", that is the first chord on track 2 "A Headache And A Sixty-Fourth". That's one example of what I'd do with it. The mM7 is such an interesting chord, there are tons of cool things to do with it.

C D# E B all fit into E harmonic minor. You also have two sets of m2 intervals to work with. Some really cool disgusting things to do with that.

With your last notes Bb F# G G#, here's an example of where you're stuck with three chromatics in a row, not too scale friendly. And so I'd probably break it up into two chords..."

As far as a progression goes, youv'e already provided one, thanyou.

Play the progression...
Gm Ab7 (the Ab7 being the tritone substitution of D7).
Over the Gm chord play the notes G and Bb
Over the Ab7 chord play the notes G# F# (correctly spelled as Ab Gb in an Ab7 chord)


Ill assume were in G Minor.

i - tts/V

An imperfect/half/open cadance, with the V tri-tone subbed. Is that what you thought before you made it

Is a common approach for you to use the circle of tones as a lead line/solo, than cement the notes in a more tonal based use, the chords underneath, that actually succumb to some standard theory.

For the other progression, you just have i - V's in our two Harmonic/Melodic Minor keys, because thats what our tone groups dictate.

Thats very cool how you have taken 12 seemingly un-related notes, and made them into something we can make music with.

Can I just ask what your process was for coming up with the chords, obviously i - V arent rocket sceince, but looking at the tone rows, what inspired these.

The E B C D#, and D F A C# are obvious, as they dictate two Harmonic Minor (or Melodic for the last one) Scales/Chords.

Looking at the I tts/V for the last permutation of tones, makes perfect sense of course, but I dont think I would have come up with that, what makes good practice for being able to turn a tone row, like I had, into musical ideas like you had, just using the Circle of Tones system I suppose?

The Bb F# G G# works very well over a Gmin - Ab7

Over the Gmin of course you have a 3rd, maj7, root, and b9, a Double Harmonic almost. Im guessing you wouldent hang to long on your G#, a passing tone more like.

Over Ab7, a 9, b7 a Major 7 uke:should not be harsh, trane used many a Maj7 over Dominant chords, and a root.

Ill have to try it, thanks very much for the in-depth explanation Ron.

 

[rbd]

Hi there, I've just red the article, not in great detail, I must confess, but I have a few questions just to make shure my rather limited theory knowledge is enough to try this method.

I'm under the impression that you can throw the notes on the clock in any way you feel like, even randomly. And then make those grouping patterns also as you wish, randomly too if you wish. And then see what you'll come up with. Isn't that too random?

Or do you start with an idea before the clock, set the notes and/or patterns around that idea and have the system providing you new ideas to "match" the first one?

I mean, how can I choose how to set the notes on the clock if I have no idea of what it'll come up with with the grouping patters? It's seems so overwhelming...

Do you come to a point that this kind of riffs come out naturally in your head without the 12TS? I can do it with more regular scales/chords: I play them mentally, know the name of the scales and chords, and know where they are in the fretboard, don't have to do trial-and-error.

 

[Bingefeller]

Hi guys,

I have been following this topic with some interest and I would like to know how Ron goes about choosing his 12 notes, pretty much what rbd above me is asking.

 

[ronjarz]

Its all about knowing what to do with groups of notes once you scatter them on the clock. Again, without knowledge of music theory, it's a system not worth messing with. For example, if you don't know what scales or chords the notes Eb G Bb could fall into, it's time for a music theory course.

 

[Bingefeller]

Its all about knowing what to do with groups of notes once you scatter them on the clock. Again, without knowledge of music theory, it's a system not worth messing with. For example, if you don't know what scales or chords the notes Eb G Bb could fall into, it's time for a music theory course.

Eb G Bb would be Eb major, which is one option, right?

How do you choose these notes though?

 

[ronjarz]

Yep, there you go. Simple enough. Now what are the other groupings of notes that you have, and how was your circle (clock of notes) arranged? Hint: Put them anywhere.

If you want to use the Eb major triad, line up those notes at 12:00, 1:00 and 2:00. That would be the scheme of "3 in a row". (Put the remaining 9 tones anywhere on the clock).

Did you check out the example that I posted a while back?...

http://www.ronjarzombek.com/rj12tone2.html

 

[Bingefeller]

Thanks for the explanation and clarification, Ron. I had read the Circle of 12 Tone lessons on your website but it wasn't until I discovered this thread that I re-read them. It sounds like you use this system to come up with cool chord progressions that you wouldn't normally come up with. It's very interesting to me and a learning experience getting to grips with it. Can't wait for your DVD!

 

[ronjarz]

Yep, you got it. It's just a different way to come up with progressions and note configurations that you wouldnt' have come up with using conventional theory. A lot of times you come up with alternate scales, clusters and the whole thing opens up doors that lead to unknown places. But for those composers who do not know any music theory, it does not work.