Question on mixing low tuned guitars - Not Djent

[bjorn218]

Gentlemen, I have a question in regards to mixing non-djent down tuned guitars.

How does one go about finding the proper place for guitars tuned to C or lower (standard tuning) to get some relative separation between the guitars and bass, while going to the wall of destruction sound as opposed to a very tight de-tuned Djent mix?

Examples:
Arkhon Infaustus
http://youtu.be/Ksr9mUT9ooM
Incantation
http://youtu.be/S8wS-Axm8j0

as opposed to
Meshuggah
http://youtu.be/4A_tSyJBsRQ
and even Cannibal Corpse
http://youtu.be/36kBuK_RvBQ

Thank you for any pointers any of you can give me.

 

[userchanged1]

+1 on this question!

 

[Melb_shredder]

Really interesting questions if looked at in depth, but I guess it depends how you want to approach it. For me, 'low' tuning is about A/A# that I have to deal with, not really like G or lower etc. But of course, even say B to E is a huge difference overall in terms of where the guitars fit. I guess with lower stuff it's even more so about keeping the low end in check and keeping it tight without removing or augmenting too much of it. And even more so about getting the low mids/ mids right. The note definition needs to be there and so does the body too

 

[egan.]

It may seem counter intuitive but the lower you go the more it becomes about the low mid-range interaction between bass and guitar. One trick is to high-pass both of them high (maybe 150 or 200) and then workout your mid-range and then dial back the HP and work out 100-200 and then finally set your filters where you actually want them. I'm sure plenty of guys can zoom in without band limiting their focus, but IME it can definitely help you focus on what's clashing when you're stuck. Huge guitar low end just doesn't really work IMO, so you'l likely find yourself HP at or even above where you would for an e-standard guitar.

 

[bjorn218]

Melb and Egan, thanks for the input. From what I gathered from both of your posts is thay the process is the same as other mixing, but frequencies of the guitars and bass are closer together so finding a happy medium is important for separation of the instruments. I had already thought that was the case, I just wanted to have the thought validated.

Do you have any clue.to create that wall of guitar feel that is in the examples I posted? To my ears, it sounds like the mix is eq'ed not as surgically as in a lot of other modern metal. It sounds like a freight train is barreling down at you. I ask because in this style of music it ( the un-polished guitars)adds a certain organic quality that seems to be lost in a lot of modern production. Im not saying production quality these days is bad, it has just gotten so precise and demanding, finished product sounds more like guitar electronica or pop industrial. The trend is to make a recording so perfect and hard, the opposite is actually attained making bands sound weak. The "f**k you this is METAL" vibe isnt there. The live quality with a wart here and there is something I want to retain in my recordings.

 

[nezvers]

I guess tight tuning could be even more needed in so low tuning.
I'm still learning but at last I started to mix without soloing tracks as much as before, because you can cut and boos Hz on individual tracks,but when you listen all of them at once it could show that problem lies in different Hz that you would fix when soloed.

 

[waav studios]

contour the low end frequencies in the guitars. you have to remember that a guitar is a mid range instrument, treat it as such. separation occurs through separating frequencies. let things sit in their own "domain", and don't be afraid to try extreme eq settings. you may be surprised what you find. your ears are you friend, not necessarily your meters or eq settings. just my opinion.

 

[schismatic]

I wouldn't underestimate the ability of correct tuning to clear things up with low tunings. We play in drop A, and I always pitch correct our bassist's DIs using Melodyne before I start mixing with it. I'm careful to high pass as appropriate so things don't get too muddy, just play around with the proportion of the sound that comes from guitars and the proportion that comes from the bass. Don't be afraid to take a lot of the guitar's low end away, because there will be plenty with the bass. Use your ears of course - check bass on headphones in addition to your monitors.

 

[Machinated]

I'm mixing something with guitars tuned to G at the moment and its definitely a tough balancing act. the midrange and overtones in the bass are key for filling out the sound. the key frequencies in the guitars shift around a bit, I'm finding that LPFing lower helps. around 1k is REALLY important. the mids lower than that are really critical too and its a massive juggling act. theres quite a lot of mud from 300hz downwards that once cleared up really helps.

in terms of mixing, remember that getting a big low end isn't about going as low as possible frequency wise. cut out what you don't need and try and keep things controlled as you would mixing anything else. with low tuned bass you have to watch that certain notes don't go missing, but as I said above its the overtones that are going to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

 

[bjorn218]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the tips you all have given. I do agree with treating the instruments according their natural places. Tuning guitars down past D I agree leads to a balancing act as the bass and guitars start inter-playing in the frequencies a lot more than normal.

We have had to make some interesting changes to the amp setups and signal chains in the rehearsal room to get the bass to play better with the guitar. Such as incorporating O.D. in the bassists signal chain so the bass actually clears up.

It is a work in progress. I mainly wanted to ask you guys this because in my area there is only one engineer truly familiar with this style of extreme metal, and when I last worked with him, I was not pleased with his ultimate result. While his work was indeed pro sounding compared to everyone else I looked at. The guitars ended up being weak and thin, bass did not support the low end well and sounded disconnected, and his drum editing was too cut and paste.

I understand that as an engineer/producer you all have your personal touch to the end product that makes your mark, but I also feel that it is your job to help the musician/bands convey in the best way possible convey their vision of what they are trying to say in regards to their music. When I spoke to this guy before we recorded, he asked what I was looking for and I told him in specific detail what I wanted. Once we were in the mixing stage, he would send me mixes that were not close to what we discussed. I would get responses from him such as, I do not like "band X" you said you liked the guitars to sound like so I didnt even listen to your original intent, or when the vocals werent there, I was told that he is a guitarist so he really doesnt care what vocals sound like in the mix. etc... After 4 bad mixes I was told I would have to start paying for additional ones. I paid for the final one I did in fact use to shop around, but will not listen to because I feel it sub-par and was a result of someone a little too arrogant to deal with in the future.

SO..... I started this thread so I could learn from all of your collective knowledge, how to express what I want and what I expect from my money, to whoever I decide to use in the future to mix my albums, in ways that you all understand from your perspective. I am not trying to be combative with this post and am not being argumentative, but a musician says certain things about tone, that I think are a little to general in terminology or in actual practice from an engineers standpoint and to learn where you all are coming from is imperative to make us, musicians, less ignorant to an engineer's/producer's standpoint. I thank you all for what you have contributed to my education in this.

I am trying to, at least for my music, learn how to make your job easier, so I am not looked at as the enemy that we seem to be by you guys. Guys like Glenn, and SLipperman are perfectly correct in what they say about most musicians and I do agree with them more than not.

 

[bjorn218]

Aside from getting the "balance" of the instruments that most have seemed to focus on in their responses. What causes, or where to experiment with in the grand scheme of the mix, do you start trying to pull out that "barreling down at you like a freight train" noise the bands I originally posted links to were getting. I also hear the same thing on Possessed's Seven Churches, Dark Angel's Darkness Decends, Whiplash Stage Dive off Power and Pain. To my ears, the mix sounds pissed off. It is like whoever captured those bands at those sessions, perfectly captured the anger of the music. That more than anything is what I totally love about extreme metal and is more than not lacking in nearly ALL recordings from the past 20 years. Is that noise tape compression?

 

[Full_Tilt]

A common problem for me with guitars and bass around B tuning is quite alot of low end tripping the peak levels so I roll off a wider low end shelf freq for guitars and this seems to take care of both peak levels and separation .
The rest still seems to apply to normal tunings so I have not really gone into that but I find its best just to cut or roll off the frequencies I dont need for any particular instrument and that then gives me more head room to play with before those peak levels become an issue again .
If you want that wall of power between bass and guitars you might want to keep more lows and low mids on guitars and more mids on bass but I find it always depends on what youve got to start with . Its quite difficult to quote which exact frequencies to cut and boost , its easier to just to say remove low end with a simple shelf and adjust its width to get it in the ball park before things get complicated .
I dont really mess around deeply with EQ I try my best to track it as usful as I can and just tweek it as little as poss .
I think most of my problems early on were caused by usless bass D.I tracks that were neither here nor there . Now I try to get as interesting bass tone as I can before tracking or set it up so that im using the right pickup tone to drive it later . Bass guitar can ruin it .

BTW those old school recordings (80's) most things were rolled off at low end . Not much low end on guitars in old school thrash and bass tended to be more mid focused than what came later . Also distortion levels were quite low back then ...none of this *shoveling coal* tone .