Reamping - n00b error/wrong gear?

Zozobra

Member
Feb 11, 2006
222
0
16
UK
I've been using this on and off for a bit and know that theres a lot of experience with it here.

My method -

In:

Guitar - J48 - FF800 pre.
Pad on, pre gain set such that max peaks are about -1-2db, mono track, centre pan etc etc etc.

I play through the through of the J48 all the time, even when not recording. Sounds great.

Out
FF line out, balanced - X-Amp - amp

The guitar has a bare knuckle aftermath. I've been recording with this pickup for about a year, a little more than even, with no problem. Its about 15k DC passive (obviously).

Now, I get it to work in that theres something thats recognisably guitar comes out the other end at something like the volume expected and I've had quite a bit of success with it in the past with other peoples tracks. I noticed doing this that there was less saturation and sparkle in the sound and figured screw it, work with what I have. I couldnt do a proper test because the guitarists never played through the amp that I reamped through, so I didnt know what it would 'really' have sounded like direct without the player there any more.

However, my first time since starting to use this (several months ago) with my own main guitar, my own playing and songs and playing that guitar through the amp beforehand, same material, same playing, big difference. The reamp tracks sound like ass compared to the direct signal. They lack fullness and are fizzier, and are a a bit quieter I think too.

I've tried increasing input and output gains on the pre and line out and that just adds mud, followed by a staticy nasty thing in the top end when the DI out starts to clip.

Playing through the reamp signal does the same thing (as in guitar - J48 - FF Pre - FF line out - X-Amp - Amp)

Mucking about with EQs, on the amp, the DI and the recorded tracks there doesnt seem to be anything missing from the spectrum broadly speaking, like its dropping a lot of high end or low end, it seems to be lacking harmonic content, or adding more of a different sort than the direct sound has.

So, am I doing something horribly wrong? If I've commited some n00b error, please tell me now! Otherwise could it be some part of the gear chain/combintation of gear?

Or, for those that have much more experience of reamping; is this par for the course? I've been doing it for a while, but entirely in isolation; I've never had what you might call a practical tutorial, and I've never even met anyone else round here (cumbria, backwater of the UK) that even knows that you can reamp a guitar at all, let alone bounce this stuff off.

Thanks for reading. Sorry if its a painfully backward/previously asked question.
 
I dont know.

I just figured 'dont clip them', so adjusted the pre so the loudest transients were at about there.

The majority of the sound is way below that, obviously.

But I dont know. Should I have recorded the DIs a little cooler?
 
This could be down to the fact that the J48 has an input impedance of 220k Ohms, for a guitar with passive pickups you really need a DI with a input impedance of 1Mohm. So at the moment you have an impedance mismatch which could result in a loss of treble.
 
-1 to -2 db is also pretty hot as mentioned, chances are your pre's are adding some distortion as the analogue stages are running well above their optimum operating level (0Vu, which is about -12 to -18db in your DAW) maybe try recording at a lower level to get a cleaner signal.
 
Just been doing a little more testing - you're right about the loss of treble. I was about to come and correct myself; I just tried to match the reamp sound the played sound, then go back to the reamp sound.

Dialed in a sound I liked while playing.

Reamp, try to match.

I ended up adding quite a bit of treble on the amp (didnt get a match, but got closer)

Play again through those settings, and it was way brighter still. Definitely louder as well.

Not sure what the hell I was doing when I concluded that there was no great loss in any range of the spectrum. It was late, I was tired, ears burned out....its so obviously there now!

So that fits with the impedence mismatch. An explanation! Thank you!

'Spose its a double edge sword if thats the explanation: I have to buy a new DI box, but I'm not totally incompetent :lol:

So, I'm given to believe that the Countryman has a higher input impedence?
 
-1 to -2 db is also pretty hot as mentioned, chances are your pre's are adding some distortion as the analogue stages are running well above their optimum operating level (0Vu, which is about -12 to -18db in your DAW) maybe try recording at a lower level to get a cleaner signal.

Thanks!

So, might be part gear part n00b error :lol: I can live with that.

I'll go try lowering the gain too/before buying another DI (which I'll probably do anyway, I could do with another).
 
Wait, what's the input impedance of the FF800 pre?
I really don't think you need that J48. If it's 220k Ohms thats what's fucking you up.

And stay under the 'yellow' region on your meter. -1 to -2 is way too hot. Try getting the peaks at -8 to -10 or something.
 
450k, I think. Maybe 500k. Not sure about that though.

The thought certainly crossed my mind, but when I got the radials I had no way of properly splitting the signal back to the amp.

The level thing seems to be a common agreement, but am I really that far off? The guide (which I just read, hoping it might shed some light) sticky says -3,-4. Now, when I say my peaks are -1 - -2, I mean that its up there like, 1% of the time, if that.

I will try with lower gain though. Later today or early tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice fellas, most helpfull.
 
-3 to -4 is still pretty hot
Try it in the -6 to -9 range, try even a bit lower. You'll have much less "mud" as you said.
You can turn your monitors up a bit if it's not loud enough at that point.
 
For the record I had an X Amp and that thing blew. Everything always sounded weak even with the trim pot on the box all the way up. Same tracks through REAMP V2 and there was no issue. Perfect tracks. I read somewhere that the XAMP has to be modded to not blow.
 
Funny you say that mesa. Anyway, I'll get back to that. Testing done.

I was about to report back with my findings.

I dont have another reamp box to test, but I have the FF imp in.

A/B/C-ing playing through the following paths, while playing around with input gain and comparing with actual playing revealed the following:

Guitar - FF instrument input - Line out - X-amp - amp
Guitar - J48 - FF Pre - line out - X- Amp - Amp
Guitar - amp

Both routes were much lower gain/queiter than the guitar direct.
Raising the gain to a level where the volume and saturation of the reamp signal chain and the guitar direct were comparable made both reamp signal chains sound like ass, but the FF rather less so. It developed considerably less mud and retained considerably more sparkle.

Recording and reamping a DIs at different input gains and playing with settings on the amp revealed:

You guys were right about the input gain. If the peak went over about -8 it started to sound like shit. However, nothing like the saturation OR clarity, and certainly not volume of the guitar direct was attainable with either DI route or any gain level (DI input, not amp) that didint sound like total shit.

That said, the FF inst in retained more clarity in the top end, had less top roll off and didnt mud up in the low end nearly as much.

The guitar I'm using kicks out a very loud signal and the best results on the DI playback were with the fireface inst, gain on 0 (as in dial all the way to the left). The best results with the J48 wer basically the same; pre gain 0, pad on; utterly minimal, but this sounded very weak and had to be compesated for heavily at the amp, BUT it didnt sound like total shit, which it did at any higher input level.

So, I do all this and start to think 'well thats the best I'm gonna get then, then Mesa, you come along with that statemet, which is very consistent with the lack of output from my reamp signal that I'm getting.

Can anyone else confirm or deny this. Its not that I dont believe you, mesa, but it seems odd that such a huge error would be made. The gain drop in reamping through the X-Amp really is very high, but I thought that it was weak DIs, not weak reamping. I have the trim pot on max as well.

I'm not too shabby (but not too great) with a soldering Iron; any info on the mod?
 
I'm pretty sure the Pro RMP and X Amp have a attenuated output as potentially they are dealing with line level signals coming from your DAW, so this level needs to be brought down to guitar level before it hits the amp. Unfortunately this doesn't tie in very well with recording your DI's at a reasonable level in you DAW. Maybe you could get a decent level by normalizing the DI so it's closer to 0db before reamping it? Or just turn up the fader in your DAW?

I've just compensated by turning up the gain on my tubescreamer in the past and been ok.
 
Cant get reamp V2 here, apparently.

Ordered a red eye from KMR, who'll let me return it if I dont like it.

Looking forward to it.

Thanks for you help fellas, really sorted me out on the gain issue (that I didnt reallise I was doing), and hopefully the littlelabs will be better for me than the radials.
 
I'm pretty sure the Pro RMP and X Amp have a attenuated output as potentially they are dealing with line level signals coming from your DAW, so this level needs to be brought down to guitar level before it hits the amp. Unfortunately this doesn't tie in very well with recording your DI's at a reasonable level in you DAW. Maybe you could get a decent level by normalizing the DI so it's closer to 0db before reamping it? Or just turn up the fader in your DAW?

I've just compensated by turning up the gain on my tubescreamer in the past and been ok.

Theres the matter of the signal clarity from the J48 as well, which I'm not satisfied with after testing against the FF inst in (much better).

With any luck the little labs will have the output available to get a comparable sound to the guitar direct, so I can dial in a bit more easily.

If not, as you say, a boost of some sort, or use of the massive amounts of gain I have left to use on the amps (powerball and pittbull mainly; lots of gain to spare, I rarely have the gain over 3 and 7 respectively) plenty of ODs and boosts kicking roung too - I'll just deal with it if I have to, as I have before, but I'd rather not have to.
 
I always recorded my DIs with peak level at -3 db at strongest possible signal (so DIs ended with around -6 db at peaks with actives), then I`m using modded ProRMP as reamper (bypassed two resistors to get less volume drop, so I even can boost signal). Reamped track sounded better than direct most of time.
 
Interesting, with the modding the radials again

I found metaltastics (?) reamper a/b/c/d from ages ago with the x amp, proRMP, red eye and reamp. From blind listening I thought B and C were weak sounding, A and D pretty comparable and quite a bit better, then the fella that did it revealed that it was A: reamp B: proRMP C: X-Amp D: Red eye, and that he increased the gain at the amp on the radials to compensate for a weaker signal. Consistent again with the radials reamp signal being weak.

Red Eye will, or should, arrive tomorrow. Looking forward to testing it.
 
Well, just finished testing the Red Eye.

Its a clearer winner. Pad off, max level is almost the same as guitar direct. Leaves the X-amp in the dust. Sounds cleaner and less like its adding its own harmonics/distortion than the X-Amp at the same (subjective) level as well.

Much better. My reamp sound still isnt *the same* as my direct sound, as theory would suggest, but the difference has closed massively thanks to the help in this thread (between the advice to use cooler DIs and the heads up that the X-Amp is weak), so I'm sorted now. Thanks chaps!
 
Thats good to know, I have been having a similar problem with my PRO RMP and just put myself on the list for the New Redeye 3D.