Recording GH100L direct with DI100 and Edirol FA-66

[Ktula81]

Hi all,

I've been lurking on the forums for a while, picking up hints on the art of impulses and direct recording, however I've now got to the point where I have a specific technical question and I can't seem to find the answer by googling this (or a couple of other) forums, so I'm going to have to ask my first question, hopefully I won't make a fool of myself before I've even got started.

Its a bit long, but like I say - its quite specific!

I've been getting used to using impulses.I've been recording direct into the PC using a Ultra DI-100 to split the signal, running the XLR from the DI100 into the FA-66 and the unbalanced link output into my amp (turned down low!) or Boss GT-6 for monitoring.

I then use Guitar Rig to 'Re-amp' the signal, turning off the Guitar Rig speaker simulators and running it into Pristine Space to simulate the cabinet with some reasonable results. I've now decided I want to try and record my amp direct and use the impulses to simulate the speakers. Note that I want to record the preamp and power amp stages so I need to take the signal from the speaker out and therefore need to ensure I am loading the power amp!

In the manual the DI-100 says you can run the speaker out of a power amp directly into the input without killing it (it says it can handle power outputs up to 3000W) as long as you set the attenuation on the box to max (40dB). Essentially its connected like a Hot plate in 'Load' mode with no speaker and taking the line out for those of you versed in such things. I set up so i was going guitar->amp->(speaker out)-> DI100-> FA-66. As you can imagine I was somewhat apprehensive, but took the plunge and the amplifier didn't catch on fire, so far so good.

My problem is this: the output from the DI100 is INCREDIBLY loud, with the master volume of the GH100 above 1 (and the preamp set to a reasonable "Rock crunch") I get clipping constantly even with the input sensitivity of the FA-66 on minimum - this is with the max attenuation the DI-100 can provide. Given that the idea is that I have the amp cranked but silent this kind of defeats the point of the whole endevour!

Has anyone had any experience either with recording amps direct with the DI-100 or the preamp sensitivity of the FA-66? If the DI-100 is designed to send direct amp output to PA's then are the FA-66 preamps just too sensitive? Would some kind of attenuating XLR cable help?

I understand I could get a Hotplate and do the same thing, but that would cost a few hundred £'s, and additionally I've no guarantee I wouldnt have the same problem since I have no idea what the output level of the Hotplate is compared to the DI-100.

Note that the DI-100 is NOT the GI-100 with built in speaker simulator (since I'm doing that with the impulses). For information I've tried all the speaker outs on the amp (4-16 Ohms) and both XLR inputs on the FA-66 (and tried the High Z switch). None of that seems to make a significant difference.


Sorry for it being so long - I really hope its not a stupid question. I half suspect someone is going to come in and say "the DI100 doesn't do what it says in the manual, buy a Hotplate", but I'd really like to know if thats the case of if I'm doing something retarded...

Thanks in advance for any help!

K

 

[if6was9]

I don't know why its clipping- I've never heard of anyone recording the speaker out though i'm not an expert by any means!

But the impulses that most of the guys here use/give actually emulates the power section aswell so if you applying impulses to the signal your recording it'll have essentially gone through 2 power amp stages which is unneccesary. You might aswell just record the line out/effects loop out until you get it sorted your way and apply impulses to that. Don't know if you've tried it this way already, its the usual way people do it- maybe you have and didn't like the results so then if thats the case just ignore this!

 

[Tommy Gun]

Ditch the Berhinger and get a Radial.

 

[Ktula81]

if6was9 -Sorry, I didnt realise that the impulses included the power stage, I'd assumed they were just the cab & microphone (although thinking about it I'm not sure how that would work!!). For information I'm using the original Guitarhack impulses at the moment. If that is the case then yes I should be able to take it out of the FX loop and solve my problem that way. Ill give it a go over the weekend and see what it sounds like...

Tommy Gun - If that doesnt work which Radial are you reccomending? Apart from being too expenisve for me atm, the Radial JDX (which looks like the closest thing to what I'm trying to do) Doesnt include a load, so I'd need a Hotplate or similar in addition anyway (thus defeating the point of getting the RDX, for my particular problem anyway). Am I missing something?

Thanks for the responses btw

K

 

[Tommy Gun]

My pot shot at the Berhinger was not really related to the thread. My apologies. However, in regards to your post...

I think you may be doing some unforeseen damage to your amp.

"... both active and passive DI boxes can be designed to accept loudspeaker-level signals, but because of the high voltages generated at the outputs of power amplifiers, resistive networks are needed to attenuate the signal to a safe level. For this reason, speaker level signals should NEVER be fed into a DI box or other piece of equipment not specifically designed to handle them, as serious equipment damage will almost certainly result. Furthermore, power amplifiers are designed to run into a loudspeaker load, so the loudspeaker system or an equivalent dummy load (power soak) must be connected to the speaker Thru socket when working with speaker-level signals. While a solid state amplifier may tolerate running with no load, a valve amplifier is almost certain to sustain damage to its output transformer if run without a speaker or dummy load connected." -from Sound on Sound (link below)

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun02/articles/diboxes.asp

 

[Ktula81]

Tommy Gun - yes, that was my understanding as well (Valve Amp run without load =! Amp death), however from the DI-100 manual...

""When no line out is available it is possible to connect an amplifier output directly to the DI100 (e.g. recording direct from a guitar amplifier...). It is possible to connect the output i.e. an extra speaker output, of up to 3000W to the ULTRA-DI without fear of overloading."

http://www.behringerdownload.de/DI100/DI100_ENG_Rev_F.pdf

Do you think the key word there is 'extra' i.e. this only works if you have a speaker/load connected in addition to the DI100? If so its not terribly explicit, hopefully I haven't misunderstood and wrecked the tubes/transformer....

K

 

[Joematthews]

Seriously, I would forget using the speaker out of your amp and the DI100, and just take the send of your amp, and use impulses. At the moment your running the risk of blowing your amp, so just use the send.

Sorted.

Joe

 

[Tommy Gun]

I second that. Honestly I never trust anything Behringer says. I would just get a good Radial box, and go from your guitar to the radial to preamp/interface, and then use impulses, or even see about some of the REALLY talented guys here doing some reamping for you. A lot of these guys are very good. Don't take the risk of damaging that Laney.

 

[Ktula81]

Cheers for the advice guys, I had a chance to test it last night using the FX loop on 100% send (so no signal reaching power stage) and it sounded fine using the impulses. The amp still sounds ok, so hopefully I didn't wreck it with my experimentation. I'm strictly amateur with this stuff, but once I've got something decent recorded I'll post it for the pros general amusement!

K

 

[Tommy Gun]

Cool. Good luck man.