Recording Guitar: What am I doing wrong?

[iacntspell]

I've been making an attempt at recording guitars for almost a decade now, but just recently have gotten more serious about things. I've lurked around the Sneap forums and a number of other recording forums, and I've read enough recording mags over the years that I should be able to get at least a passable tone. Unfortunately, that hasn't really been the case. After spending countless hours or the past few years trying to capture a decent sound, I'm hoping that by turning to some folks with more experience might help me figure out my problem.

I've recorded a quick clip using the Fredman two-mic technique that's pretty popular around here and other metal forums in general, and I've linked to each separate track (Dust Cap and Cone). The clips were recorded with a Gibson Explorer (stock pickups) through an ENGL fireball into an Avatar 2x12 (contemporary, using a Vintage 30 speaker), running dual 57's into my Focusrite Saffire Pro 40. The tracks have absolutely no processing; that means no HPF (or any EQ), no compression, etc.

I understand a lot of the standard techniques for cleaning up raw tracks like the ones I've posted (HPF and LPF, compression, dual-quad tracking, adding a bassline, etc). I've tried all of these over and over and over, using every combination I could imagine, but I've still had no luck. My feeling is that I've got to have a problem at the source, because no matter what kind of tweaking I try, I basically get a slightly less awful sound than what I'm starting with.

I have some options here, and I'm open to just about anything. As I mentioned, I've got the Explorer and ENGL, but I also have a Gibson SG, Epi LP with EMG's, even a Strat with Duncans, and I've got a Marshall DSL50 amp as well. My speaker cab also has a G12H30. As far as mic's go, I've got the two 57s, an SM7b, some CAD TSM411 drum mics, and a couple of Chinese LDC's. I've gone over and over all these gyrations with mic placement, different speakers, different amps, different mics, different guitars to no avail.

Can somebody PLEASE tell me what I'm doing wrong and maybe suggest how I could fix it with the above gear at hand? For reference, I'm going for a newer Katatonia sound, but realistically anything heavy and tight, even if it's a played-out Dual Rectifier tone. Feel free to be as brutally honest as you'd like, and if you don't think I can get anything passable for what I want out of the ENGL/DSL50, other amp recommendations in a similar price range are fine as well. As you can tell from my longwindedness, I'm starting to get desperate.

Lastly, try to excuse the sloppy playing and the lame choice of riff; it was the first thing that came to mind...

THANKS!

 

[Tommy Evans]

Not trying to be a dick but you ever think it may be your playing technique? If youve had all these years to experiment with good gear and different recording methods and nothing still works...may just be you. Either that or you're just too hard on yourself.

 

[JakeAC5253]

A very important question to ask yourself is does the amp sound on tape like it does in the room? Get down on one knee in front of the speaker and listen to the tone coming straight from the speaker. If the answer is yes, then you've got a good recording of a shitty tone. If the answer is no, then you've got a bad recording of a good tone. This is a solid starting place.

 

[iacntspell]

Not trying to be a dick but you ever think it may be your playing technique? If youve had all these years to experiment with good gear and different recording methods and nothing still works...may just be you. Either that or you're just too hard on yourself.

You're not being a dick. That's a completely logical place to start. While I'm not ruling anything out, I'm also skeptical that things would come down to purely poor technique/playing. While I'm not a professional, I think my technique is reasonably decent, and I have issues with the tone recording even when it's just a simple open powerchord or a few single notes. I honestly think the problem has to be somewhere between my fingers and computer. Thanks for the input!

 

[iacntspell]

A very important question to ask yourself is does the amp sound on tape like it does in the room? Get down on one knee in front of the speaker and listen to the tone coming straight from the speaker. If the answer is yes, then you've got a good recording of a shitty tone. If the answer is no, then you've got a bad recording of a good tone. This is a solid starting place.

Good point. I've had some trouble with this in the past just because I haven't been able to get anyone over to play while I listen. This is another reason why I've had difficulty listen to mic sweeps over the speaker cabinet as well.

From what I have been able to do, mug instinct tells me that it's more of a shitty tone/sound source problem than a shitty recording problem. Does it make sense, though, that I could be as far off from the tone I'm looking for as I am with both the ENGL and Marshall. I've known plenty of players to use the amps and I can believe this is the best sound I can get to tape. Regardless of the settings I try, I've never found either amp to come close to acceptable, and I'm just having a really difficult time understanding that. I'm not trying to squeeze brilliance out of a Line 6...

I'll give the speakers a closer listen and get somebody over to help out ASAP. Thanks!

 

[Bay Studio]

hey yo! i totally understand what you´re saying. i had the same problem, but just for like a year until i found out MY quickest way to achieve MY sound i love from an amp.
I´ll gladly tell you MY way of doing it in a couple of simple explained steps,...but, firsthand i gotta tell you that the gear you have is not the problem! An ENGL head, avatar cab, etc. The only thing worrying me is your pickups, cuz i have a gibson too with stock pickups in it and it just doesnt cut it for METAL/high gain tones. Maybe try a guitar with EMG´s in it, if possible, if not..its not suuuuch a big deal!
So, here we go:
1.) Setup the AMPs EQ to 12 o clock (mids, highs, lows, presence).
2.) Set up the cab in a good spot in your room/recording room. Best would be to raise it up on something, like cement blocks or plywood, that helps the rumble to get more controlled. make sure the amp doesnt point directly at a wall, let it point to the wall in a slight angle so that reflections dont occure.
3.) Start off with a single SM57 pointed directly at the center of the cone, like an inch or maybe even 2 back, to get more frequencies spreading into the mic. Just leave the mic there for a moment. Its a good spot, since it gets the most presence and bite of the amp.
4.) Monitor your sound you get from that 57. Start fooling around with the EQ knobs that are set to 12 o clock, best would be starting with bass/bottom, keep palmmute-chugging the low string and turn the knobs up or down til you get what you wanna hear!
5.) Usually a single 57 can do the job for a great tone! So, what i like to do by this stage, as soon as i got a tone that thnk sounds great over the monitors, i put a 7 band EQ on the guitar track in pro tools, i high pass at around 60-85 Hz and Low Pass at around 9-10.5 Khz (always depends on). Then i start carving out 2 frequencies i HATE, that make it "boxy". In my case its mostly the 308Hz and around 600Hz, i just make a narrow curve and pull the frequency up as high as possible and then sweep through the frequencies til i found what i dont like to hear.

Thats basically it! If that mic sounds good, then go off to the second 57 or different mic. maybe a different speaker of choice, in a different angle, maybe off axis on the same speakr would do fine!

Hope i could help you!
Greetz

 

[iacntspell]

hey yo! i totally understand what you´re saying. i had the same problem, but just for like a year until i found out MY quickest way to achieve MY sound i love from an amp.
I´ll gladly tell you MY way of doing it in a couple of simple explained steps,...but, firsthand i gotta tell you that the gear you have is not the problem! An ENGL head, avatar cab, etc. The only thing worrying me is your pickups, cuz i have a gibson too with stock pickups in it and it just doesnt cut it for METAL/high gain tones. Maybe try a guitar with EMG´s in it, if possible, if not..its not suuuuch a big deal!
So, here we go:
1.) Setup the AMPs EQ to 12 o clock (mids, highs, lows, presence).
2.) Set up the cab in a good spot in your room/recording room. Best would be to raise it up on something, like cement blocks or plywood, that helps the rumble to get more controlled. make sure the amp doesnt point directly at a wall, let it point to the wall in a slight angle so that reflections dont occure.
3.) Start off with a single SM57 pointed directly at the center of the cone, like an inch or maybe even 2 back, to get more frequencies spreading into the mic. Just leave the mic there for a moment. Its a good spot, since it gets the most presence and bite of the amp.
4.) Monitor your sound you get from that 57. Start fooling around with the EQ knobs that are set to 12 o clock, best would be starting with bass/bottom, keep palmmute-chugging the low string and turn the knobs up or down til you get what you wanna hear!
5.) Usually a single 57 can do the job for a great tone! So, what i like to do by this stage, as soon as i got a tone that thnk sounds great over the monitors, i put a 7 band EQ on the guitar track in pro tools, i high pass at around 60-85 Hz and Low Pass at around 9-10.5 Khz (always depends on). Then i start carving out 2 frequencies i HATE, that make it "boxy". In my case its mostly the 308Hz and around 600Hz, i just make a narrow curve and pull the frequency up as high as possible and then sweep through the frequencies til i found what i dont like to hear.

Thats basically it! If that mic sounds good, then go off to the second 57 or different mic. maybe a different speaker of choice, in a different angle, maybe off axis on the same speakr would do fine!

Hope i could help you!
Greetz

Bay,

Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response! I've currently got the speaker cabinet sitting on an Auralex Great GRAMMA to isolate it from the floor. One thing I'm going to try, though, is to pull the cab out of the closet it's in. I've got it in there for the purpose of not blasting my ears off when I record, but instead it's blasting about 3 feet forward into my attic door, so reflections could be an issue. I tried throwing a moving blanket over the cab/mics to isolate from reflections, but the sound I got was a bit dull and lifeless. So first step, I'll get the cab into the room again and mess around.

I recorded the clips above using pretty flat EQ settings on the amp... basically all settings at noon, with pretty low gain (8-9 o'clock) because the Fireball is a pretty gain-hungry amp.

I do have a guitar with EMG's, so trying that is always an option. I have, in fact, been more pleased with the sounds I get from that guitar, even though it's an Epiphone and my Explorer is a Gibson. It's probably about time for me to swap the pickups and put the EMG's in the Gibbo, so I'll probably do that in the next week or two.

I'm going to try to get a buddy over today or tomorrow to sit around for a few hours and just fiddle around with things. After I do that, I'll come back with an update and some clips. Hopefully someone else can learn from my mistakes.

Thanks again!

 

[Joshandhisguitar]

It sounds to me like poor miking. I don't have ton of experience miking live amps but I do have some.
try and silence the room somehow.

Best of luck!

 

[Bay Studio]

yeah, no problem dude! just keep it coming. we´ll solve the problem

 

[AceFireForce117]

One thing I'm going to try, though, is to pull the cab out of the closet it's in. I've got it in there for the purpose of not blasting my ears off when I record, but instead it's blasting about 3 feet forward into my attic door, so reflections could be an issue.

This could be the problem man, let the cab have some space to breath in, also why not try Seymour Duncan pickups ?

 

[Bay Studio]

This could be the problem man, let the cab have some space to breath in, also why not try Seymour Duncan pickups ?

I agree dude! either seymour duncans or EMG´s. CAN´T go wrong with either one of these + more room for the amp.

 

[mietschie]

Hey icantspell!

How are you doing now with your problem? I've registered here because we have the EXACT same problem like you have or had and we did the same experience with different mics and micpositions but everything we do we only get this muddy and awful sound you describe in your first post.
Even if the mic is totally centered to the speaker there are many highs on the track but still that muddiness. Please tell me if you had success finding the brilliance and quality in your sound we are also looking for.
It's simply frustrating seeing someone like Ola Englund recording so brutal and brilliant raw tracks with just a single sm57 in his living room. I do not mean the mixes, just the single raw guitar track which you can find in his youtube videos.

We would be thankful to any tip or advice!!
Thank you.