Redwire MixIR2 !! New IR Loader...

[locus_coeruleus]

I love Red Wirez, but I hate the fact that I never get emails with news, not even for my products updates, haha. And the site doesn't have RSS. Looking forward to this product!

 

[Ascendant]

Most people simply don't have the proper facilities, the quality of gear, or most importantly the technical expertise or even the availability to rival drum samples or convolution cabinet simulation in their home studios

Unless, of course, there was realistic cabinet simulation, in which case it'd make todays static IRs obsolete.

 

[Kazrog]

Unless, of course, there was realistic cabinet simulation, in which case it'd make todays static IRs obsolete.

Or, they would just complain that it's not "realistic" enough...

 

[Ermz]

I've got no vested interest in championing or denouncing products of this nature. If you look above, my post is congratulatory, because I know the Redwirez team are passionate about their product. All the same it doesn't invalidate what Jeff got at, which is something I expressly avoided going into myself because you've heard it all before.

At the end of the day I think the most questionable thing that has been said in this thread is that current convolution-based cabinet emulation sounds better for most typical use cases than mic'ing cabinets.

 

[Kazrog]

I've got no vested interest in championing or denouncing products of this nature. If you look above, my post is congratulatory, because I know the Redwirez team are passionate about their product. All the same it doesn't invalidate what Jeff got at, which is something I expressly avoided going into myself because you've heard it all before.

Fair, it still came off as a bit patronizing, though. I'm sure that Mike and the Redwirez team have worked very hard on their upcoming plugin, and it looks very innovative. Knowing first-hand how much work goes into developing audio effects plugins, I felt the need to stick up for a fellow developer.

At the end of the day I think the most questionable thing that has been said in this thread is that current convolution-based cabinet emulation sounds better for most typical use cases than mic'ing cabinets.

I stand by my statement, and if you read my entire post, it's clear what I mean - a miked cabinet recording in typical (less than ideal) home studio environments will almost always sound inferior to a high quality, well matched IR.

The two are also not mutually exclusive - in fact, some of our users blend their real miked cabinet tracks with our plugin to achieve a fuller sound, again, similar to blending drum samples. It's just another tool in the toolbox - take it or leave it.

 

[Ermz]

No question that a lot of work goes into projects like this, without doubt. This is why my original post wasn't patronizing. They've managed to integrate their product into a delivery system that makes it much more convenient for their clients to use and implement that product into their workflow. That's a success by any measure.

The only thing I still take issue with is the inferral that IRs are capable of providing a superior end result to a mic'ed cabinet, even in less than ideal situations. Every practical experience I've ever had - ever - has blared contrary to that.

Most cabinets ever mic'ed are done so in less than ideal situations. Rarely does anyone have the hall they need to stop low-frequency modal problems from pervading their mic tracks. Ironically, my go-to IR these days was created in a bedroom sized room, with prosumer gear, in favor to all of the commercial libraries I've ever tried.

This alone tells you it has always been about the operator. It has always been about the mic positioning, and the midrange characteristics derived from the recording.

When comparing raw tones one might initially figure a well-balanced IR as a better starting point than the comparatively mic'ed track in a smaller, untreated room. I know, because I've been caught in this deception myself many times. Maybe the IR sounds smoother and more finished, less nodal, less fizzy, less boomy - whatever. Without fail the real recorded track will always take processing better. It will always sit in a final, professional mix in a more fluid and dynamic way. Once again, I've done this test dozens of times. IRs are a potential solution to my most crippling problem, and if they had actually solved it by know you can trust that I would know about it. I've attempted some full-out mixes with real amps run into my best IRs (power amps and all) and the mids always have that 'stuck', static quality to them. People have actually remarked regarding those mixes that 'the mids sound stuck in one place' without me inferring whatsoever that an IR was used. The results were too consistent and repeatable to ignore.

The practical tests just overshadow all the hyperbole. If someone is after a world class, realistic, tube-amp/cabinet combo tone, actually mic'ing a cab is always going to give them better results than an IR, simply because IRs absolutely fall apart under processing. All processing them serves to accomplish is uncover how static and brittle their tonal characteristics are.

I understand that someone may compromise and use IRs for practical or convenience reasons - that's perfectly rational. I find them great tools for demoing or guide tracks. The implication that they sound better than a comparatively mic'ed cabinet for a final, professional result however is an entirely different matter, and one I dispute fervently.

 

[Kazrog]

The only thing I still take issue with is the inferral that IRs are capable of providing a superior end result to a mic'ed cabinet, even in less than ideal situations. Every practical experience I've ever had - ever - has blared contrary to that.

You're also a much better engineer than most. And I don't think it's any secret that IRs are different than the real thing - as most people here know, they are a static linear process, whereas real speakers fluctuate subtly, introducing nonlinearities into the recorded signal. The microphone and preamp are also agents in the process of adding further nonlinearities.

As far as taking EQ - it's true that any filter (EQ and IRs both types of filters) can be pushed to a point of resonance where the listener's ear gravitates more toward tone(s) emphasized by the filter than the fundamental of the signal being processed. This is best exemplified by resonant filters on synthesizers, such as the Moog ladder filter - when pushed to extremes, virtually any filter (linear or mostly linear) will begin to self-oscillate or "whistle" and distract a listener from the underlying signal. If you overprocess something with linear filters - it can and will get annoying (or musical, if that's what you're going for), in other words.

I definitely agree that this technology should, can, and will improve over time, and I for one am in the midst of R&D to do exactly that. The next generation of tools will result in a debate that becomes increasingly more subjective over time, as there's no single silver-bullet approach to simulating nonlinear systems with DSP.

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

I own some sets of IR's from Redwire..
49$ is way to much for a IR loader, IMO..
I care about quality, not cpu load.. and I don't even have a good pc..
So if it can't do something, that all the free ones can.. I ain't going for it..
Especially if it's offered by buying a series of which I already have some sets from..

And like someone else said, you never get any news about updates or anything..

 

[Ermz]

Said resonant qualities of IR filters do worry me at times, being a prolific Nebula user. I can't help but shake the notion that with all the staged console processing I'm in some way inherently muddying up, or creating resonant qualities to mixes that are 'shrinking' the perceived sound. Pretty much all blind tests have led to favor mixes with Nebula on, but even so I can't help but shake the notion.

The case in point really is the characteristics of IR-based high-gain rhythm guitar sounds in mixes. No matter what's done, those stuck, distracting resonant qualities in the mids stop any mix from 'breathing' as much as it would otherwise.

I'm very glad you agree that the technology should, can and will improve over time. I would hate to think we'd get complacent at this point, being so close, yet not quite on the mark. I imagine the technical and scientific solutions to get us the last bit of the way there would be overwhelmingly complicated and hard to execute, but I have faith in the many talented coders out there to make it happen.

 

[redwire]

I own some sets of IR's from Redwire..
49$ is way to much for a IR loader, IMO..
I care about quality, not cpu load.. and I don't even have a good pc..
So if it can't do something, that all the free ones can.. I ain't going for it..
Especially if it's offered by buying a series of which I already have some sets from..

And like someone else said, you never get any news about updates or anything..

That's cool. I certainly understand where you're coming from. The mixIR2 can do everything the free plugs can do and more:

The most innovative thing besides it's "speed" is the routing system. Basically, you have two routing options. Parallel and serial. Parallel is for mixing different IRs in, yup... you guessed it... parallel, like different mics or cabs. Serial is for stuff like EQ, the impedance curves we put out and reverb, where you want the signal to go "through" the IR. You can then adjust the amount of EQ, impedance curve or reverb you actually hear. Like a wet/dry mix. There's panning too, so you can apply different treatments to the right and left channels then optionally sum them at the end. You can do some pretty neat stuff with it.

That said, it still may not be worth it to you. That's pretty much what we thought some people would say and I certainly get it. There are a lot of people much closer to owning the complete set and a lot of people who already own the whole enchilada, and even a few more, especially Mac users, who don't have so many good options for IR loaders. They're obviously going to be more excited about it.

Maybe we'll come up with some stuff in the future that will be worth your hard-earned dollars. I hope we can, because I want to be a thousand-naire some day

 

[silvermaples]

I'm definitely looking forward to it, it will be nice to have to option of trying out different IR's quickly instead of pulling one up then by the time I pull up the next one I have a hard time hearing the difference.

So for people that already have the Big Box, will they recieve an email or will it just show up in their account?


-Cory

 

[redwire]

And for those who are upset about not hearing from us often enough, try adding our support email address to your whitelist. We aren't very aggressive with our updates. We don't want to annoy people. But, when we do send out periodic updates, they seem to get trapped in spam filters a lot. I guess it's my goofy, faux-Billy Mays approach to things that throws them off. I'll work on that.

We will be sending out an email when this plug-in is officially released. The download will just show up in your accounts, too.

 

[redwire]

Hey guys,

I'm going on the road for about a week, so if I'm incommunicado, it's not because I'm being rude, it's because I don't have an Internet connection.

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

I understand you want/need to make money..
But honestly.. I believe that if you sell something for 10$, and not 100$, you'll make more money in the end.. especially when it comes to digital stuff that gets pirated the same day..
There's a game called Machinarium.. independent..
They had a "pay what you want" setup.. and they made over a million dollars..
Just sayin'
Even though your IR-loader could be the best evva'h.. There's still a lot of free ones out there..
You have company, I don't.. you do your thing..
But as a Redwire customer I'd appreaciate some form of sale or something.. hope you guys put out something new soon..
I'll be buying more IR's

 

[drew_drummer]

I understand you want/need to make money..
But honestly.. I believe that if you sell something for 10$, and not 100$, you'll make more money in the end.. especially when it comes to digital stuff that gets pirated the same day..
There's a game called Machinarium.. independent..
They had a "pay what you want" setup.. and they made over a million dollars..
Just sayin'
Even though your IR-loader could be the best evva'h.. There's still a lot of free ones out there..
You have company, I don't.. you do your thing..
But as a Redwire customer I'd appreaciate some form of sale or something.. hope you guys put out something new soon..
I'll be buying more IR's

Machinarium had the benefit of being very well crafted, and very unique when it came out. Lower prices do not always translate to more sales.

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

Machinarium had the benefit of being very well crafted, and very unique when it came out. Lower prices do not always translate to more sales.

True, having higher prices doesn't mean less sales either..
But I believe it generally is.. especially in the digital realm..

Like you said, it was very well crafted and unique..
And IR loader isn't very unique.. so..
I want them to do well.. and that high of a price might be scaring some people..

 

[JeffTD]

JeffTD, Ermz...

I'm not one to step to the defense of a competitor, but coming in and spouting negativity in (nearly) every thread relating to a new convolution-based product is not doing anyone any favors. You guys are, of course, entitled to your negative opinions, but at this point virtually everyone here is well aware of your positions.

Meanwhile, guitarists and producers at all levels of the business are happily using convolution-based cabinet simulation in the studio and live - including pros like Devin Townsend! The recently announced Axe FX II from Fractal Audio still uses convolution-based cabinet simulation. There is absolutely nothing wrong with convolution-based cabinet simulation - in fact, in most typical use cases it sounds better than miking a cabinet, just as drum samples will almost always sound better than miking up a real kit. Most people simply don't have the proper facilities, the quality of gear, or most importantly the technical expertise or even the availability to rival drum samples or convolution cabinet simulation in their home studios.

Bottom line - if Recabinet, Redwirez, Ownhammer, or Fractal's products aren't relevant to your interests right now, then you obviously have nothing good to say on the subject. Hold out for the next wave of cab sim technology and focus your attention elsewhere in the mean time. My advice, anyway...

Can't believe I'm just seeing this.


I'm sorry Shane - I like you, I like Recabinet, but sod off. This is totally and completely inaccurate. Who worth a damn is realistically using impulses to get great guitar tones? Devin has never had stellar tones - just because he's using them doesn't mean they're good.

Impulses sound worse than miking an amp. Period. You can take an impulse of a setup, record a riff through it, and then run the same head's preamp out into an interface and apply the impulse and it will sound worse. Why?

Because it's static. We've addressed this before. There is A LOT wrong with current cabinet modeling technology, regardless of what you want to say to the contrary. You, of course, have a vested interested in saying that impulses sound great, so I can't really take statements like those seriously regardless of how factually bankrupt they are.

No, none of the current impulse technologies are relevant to my interests right now, but the theory at it's core and issue it strives to solve is at the very core of my interests - why should I put up with companies putting out new "innovative" products of the same old rehashed bullshit and focus my interests elsewhere? I want someone to actually innovate in the field. I want impulses to sound good - better than mic'd cabinets even, just like you claim. The problem is that they don't and most certainly are not, and you telling me to deal with that and accept the status quo without complaint is insulting, at best.

 

[Sepultorture]

We can argue the superiority of the real thing versus the modelled till we are blue in the face. and really i have no argument to offer to it.

but one thing i will say, if it sounds good use it. there are plenty of bands using the axe fx with IR's and modeeled amps going direct to FoH, and i have to say i liked what i heard, i also like what i hear from the Redwirez library with some of the modelled amps out there. so i'm not gunna say mic-ed cabs are better or worse, i still like mic-ed cab sounds, but i also like what modelled amps and IR's has to offer, so argue the better or worse, but i like what i hear

 

[Skaldir]

Impulses sound worse than miking an amp. Period. You can take an impulse of a setup, record a riff through it, and then run the same head's preamp out into an interface and apply the impulse and it will sound worse. Why?

This is not true actually. I spend my diploma with this matter and after experimenting a lot the result was pretty much identical with normal convulsion and nebula convulsion.
But there is a lot you can do wrong in the chain.
Be prepared for my own IR library of normal and nebula impulses in the future

 

[JeffTD]

This is not true actually. I spend my diploma with this matter and after experimenting a lot the result was pretty much identical with normal convulsion and nebula convulsion.
But there is a lot you can do wrong in the chain.
Be prepared for my own IR library of normal and nebula impulses in the future

No, this is most definitely true. If it weren't, I wouldn't be such a stickler for using a mic'd cabinet 100% of the time. As soon as you put modelled speakers into a mix, the entire thing becomes static and stuffy in the midrange - zero movement, no 'breath' to it.