Redwire MixIR2 !! New IR Loader...

[Sepultorture]

that's also your oinion, but that doesn't mean IR's are shit, just another flavour to add to the mix

 

[Skaldir]

@ jeff
I should send you some files where you need to find out what is what in that case

 

[JeffTD]

that's also your oinion, but that doesn't mean IR's are shit, just another flavour to add to the mix

It's my opinion that the lack of breathing and movement sounds like shit, but it's a fact that it's there and I am most certainly not at all alone in my assessment.

I should send you some files where you need to find out what is what in that case

Please do - post them here so it's public, or make a new thread. I'll pick out impulse vs mic'd cab clips all day long... it's really not hard once you identify the god-awful lack of speaker movement.

 

[JeffTD]

I should also mention that it's really depressing to have regressed in this argument... it used to be a general consensus that yes, impulses suck compared to micing a real cab. How have our standards denigrated such that we actually believe these things compete head-to-head with moving speakers??

 

[drew_drummer]

I'm 70% or so with Jeff. Impulses are good for practice in my opinion, but not so sure I'd use them in a real mix. Any tone I've got from impulses is basically crushed once I mic a cab for real. I could just not know what I'm doing when choosing my impulses... that's a possibility.

But micing a cab gets me a better sound pretty much every single time.

 

[006]

I'm still waiting to hear clips of that DAR unit that has 10,000 sample IR's and uses DSP. IMO that thing will be the next breakthrough with IR's.

 

[Sepultorture]

oh i know you're not alone in your assessment, i still love mic-ed cabs, but i alos like IR's, differently, they have their use. you can compare all you want to what's the real thing or whats synthetic, but in the end, does it sound good. you can look for breathing, and air movement, some may not miss that at all. i don't beleive it's degenerating at all for us to like impulses, it's just another sound, and again in the end it's down to weather it sounds good to you or not.

also i'm not repressing you , can't speak for others and i don't see you being repressed at all, there are people out there that love the real thing over what we have to offer today for impulses. to each there own, that's all there is to this argument, it's apples and oranges, you like mic-ed speakers, i like both, some might like just IR's. no one is really right or wrong in what they like or their opinion, it's just down to taste

 

[Kazrog]

... you telling me to deal with that and accept the status quo without complaint is insulting, at best.

I never said that - quite the opposite if you read my post. In fact, your entire post hinges on this complete misconception. I know you're not happy with IRs, that's awesome, mic up cabs, be happy.

Right now, audio DSP developers like me are hard at work on next-generation software that will tackle this and other issues, where the primary barriers have been mainstream off-the-shelf CPU speed and the worldwide economic crisis.

In the mean time, I certainly don't think IR based tones (such as these ones using Recabinet 3) suck:





Back OT, I've heard equally great stuff being done with Redwirez, and I wish them well with their new release!

 

[Matt-Steele]

Impulses sound worse than miking an amp. Period.

Not meaning to ruffle any feathers but... This is NOT a fact. It is your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it. But so are the people that prefer the sound that impulses create to a real mic and amp.

Anything that's artistic, is open to interpretation and is inherently subjective.

 

[Sepultorture]

Not meaning to ruffle any feathers but... This is NOT a fact. It is your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to it. But so are the people that prefer the sound that impulses create to a real mic and amp.

Anything that's artistic, is open to interpretation and is inherently subjective.

agreed, and so should end this portion of debated in the thread. as the thread is again about the Redwirez mixIR2

 

[JeffTD]

I never said that - quite the opposite if you read my post. In fact, your entire post hinges on this complete misconception. I know you're not happy with IRs, that's awesome, mic up cabs, be happy.

Er....

Bottom line - if Recabinet, Redwirez, Ownhammer, or Fractal's products aren't relevant to your interests right now, then you obviously have nothing good to say on the subject. Hold out for the next wave of cab sim technology and focus your attention elsewhere in the mean time. My advice, anyway...

If that closing statement you made in your first post in the thread doesn't say "If you don't like current IR's, shut up and deal with it until something better comes along," then I must be illiterate. You obviously said it in much nicer terms, but come on man - you told me that since I don't like a product that I have nothing good to say on the subject. That's total horseshit - I can't believe you actually think that's a decent way to treat current/potential customers!

I want IR's to sound as awesome as they should and can, and when I see people like RW wasting time on an impulse loader or Fractal just doubling the bit length of the impulses to be loaded instead of doing fucking *anything* to actually better impulses and IR technology in general, it pisses me off. Apparently people are happy with unresponsive, un-dynamic, static speaker simulations? I honestly thought that we all have said time and time again that the weak point in amp modeling is no longer amp modeling, but speaker modeling.

As far as those clips... you're certainly entitled to your own opinion and marketing tactics. I don't like either of those tones at all, and they scream "speaker simulation" to me. It's the static midrange frequency that doesn't breathe or react to playing that's a dead giveaway every time, and I (as well as the vast majority of others on this forum I'm willing to bet) think that quality sucks compared to what you get when micing a cab.


I stand by every single post I've made in this thread. Somebody PLEASE show me ONE instance of an impulse of a rig sounding as good or better than the same rig mic'd up, and I will gladly eat my words. Until then, for the love of god... put pressure on companies impulses as good as they're claiming they really are - I'm tired of having to drink rancid kool-aid just to get remotely on board with how a developer sees his own product.

 

[Kazrog]

If that closing statement you made in your first post in the thread doesn't say "If you don't like current IR's, shut up and deal with it until something better comes along," then I must be illiterate. You obviously said it in much nicer terms, but come on man - you told me that since I don't like a product that I have nothing good to say on the subject. That's total horseshit - I can't believe you actually think that's a decent way to treat current/potential customers!

I never said to accept it or be content with it. I was simply pointing out that there's no sense in wasting your time in these threads if you're not interested in products using this technology. I don't like Behringer, but you don't see me jumping into Behringer threads to bash them. I have zero interest in their products, so I just ignore them as if they didn't exist.

I want IR's to sound as awesome as they should and can, and when I see people like RW wasting time on an impulse loader or Fractal just doubling the bit length of the impulses to be loaded instead of doing fucking *anything* to actually better impulses and IR technology in general, it pisses me off. Apparently people are happy with unresponsive, un-dynamic, static speaker simulations? I honestly thought that we all have said time and time again that the weak point in amp modeling is no longer amp modeling, but speaker modeling.

I've explained to you many times that there are lowest common denominator CPU horsepower factors that have made it impossible to bring a product to the market that would result in appreciably more realistic speaker simulation than IRs offer, for many years.

As far as those clips... you're certainly entitled to your own opinion and marketing tactics. I don't like either of those tones at all, and they scream "speaker simulation" to me. It's the static midrange frequency that doesn't breathe or react to playing that's a dead giveaway every time, and I (as well as the vast majority of others on this forum I'm willing to bet) think that quality sucks compared to what you get when micing a cab.

Your opinion isn't the final word - it's your opinion and you can have it, but this is all highly subjective. I wouldn't have made Recabinet if I wasn't happy with it. There is no "marketing" going on here, I use my product on my own productions because I like the sound of it, and it fits well in my workflow. I'm also not egotistical enough to think that it can't be even better - which is why I'm working on moving the technology forward in exactly the way that you're looking for.

I stand by every single post I've made in this thread. Somebody PLEASE show me ONE instance of an impulse of a rig sounding as good or better than the same rig mic'd up, and I will gladly eat my words. Until then, for the love of god... put pressure on companies impulses as good as they're claiming they really are - I'm tired of having to drink rancid kool-aid just to get remotely on board with how a developer sees his own product.

Again, this is all highly subjective. You have your preferences and you will simply have to wait until the technology progresses forward.

The only thing that isn't subjective is the scientific aspect - impulse responses cannot simulate anything other than the linear part of a system, therefore they will not exhibit the nonlinear effects present in guitar loudspeakers. Whether you are bothered by the absence of these nonlinear effects in a guitar sound or not, however, is entirely subjective.

Speaker manufacturers work hard to ensure the lowest possible frequency response deviation across the entire suggested dynamic range of speakers. Designers of high-end outboard consoles and tape machines worked hard to create the most transparent systems they possibly could. Somewhat ironically, it is the imperfections in these systems that people now crave, as though they were an intended part of the design, when in reality they are sort of happy accidents that create harmonic overtones and other sonic artifacts that many people happen to find pleasing. Studies have been done where kids now like the sound of mp3 compression, and prefer it to CDs. You and I both hate mp3 compression artifacts. Neither group is right - it's just opinions and cultural bias.

I agree with Matt Steele 100%.

 

[Morgan C]

This is not true actually. I spend my diploma with this matter and after experimenting a lot the result was pretty much identical with normal convulsion and nebula convulsion.
But there is a lot you can do wrong in the chain.
Be prepared for my own IR library of normal and nebula impulses in the future

I'd be very interested to hear this. There was a whole thread about Nebula impulses a while back, that looked REALLY promising. The end result wasn't great, but that was because the user wasn't that good. Posting up the real amp, the Nebula impulse'd signal and the normal convolution impulse'd signal, the real amp sounded kinda shitty, the Nebula impulse'd signal sounded kinda shitty but indistinguishable from the real amp, and the convolution impulse'd signal sounded really shitty and nothing like the real amp.
I don't know why that thread never went anywhere.. it's been probably a year now and we still haven't come anything close to the accuracy that achieved.

 

[Ermz]

Fundamentally, to argue that the incomplete model of a system is better than the real system itself strikes me as an odd avenue of reasoning. Apart from the clips actually solidifying everything Jeff has been saying about the midrange characteristics inherent to cabinet IRs, I just don't see how anyone finds this to be a subjective debate. IRs in this case are an incomplete, flawed, linear model of an inherently non-linear system.

Something happens with cabinet IRs... whether it be the filters used to create them, whether it be their linearity, whether it be whatever... they contain characteristics that result in them drawing the listener's ear to one particular (usually quite narrow) band of mid frequencies. That in effect has the appearance of shrinking the mix, and making vital midrange frequencies sound congested. This is nothing but solidified by the Recabinet clips posted on the other page. I was listening to the latest Arch Enemy record, with naturally amped guitars, before stopping for an intermission to listen, so it was a great basis for comparison. I suggest anyone do the same with any impulse tones. I've done it with my own mixes many times.

Here you can hear it for yourself:

Impulse rhythm guitars, real TS, real tube head including power section:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/death-metal-mix5.mp3

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Cecile-20.mp3

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/GoodWillOut-Paranoid.mp3

Real rhythms with impulse leads (listen to how much flatter the leads are): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Untruth - Drones.mp3

Real rhythms and leads: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/In Malices Wake - Join Us and Fight.mp3

If you can't, after all that's been posted, hear what Jeff and I describe about the midrange characteristics inherent to impulse-based high gain guitar sounds, I'm somewhat inclined to say that you might want to re-evaluate the desire to frequent a pro-audio board.

I too can't believe that we're at a point considering giving the even ground to this discussion. Have the standards in this placed devolved to such a level that we're willing to throw away common sense and reality in favor of catering to convenience and practicality?

 

[Ascendant]

@MorganC I'm not sure if you've seen/heard these:

http://www.guitarampmodeling.com/download/file.php?id=3875
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/14629771/HydroGrey - ownhammer nebula impulses.mp3

Both done with Ownhammers Nebula programs, relatively recent Nebula stuff and sounds (in my opinion) a whole lot better than the stuff that was floating around this forum, not necessarily in realism, but actually useful tone. The second clip isn't the greatest but I think the first has some real nice sheen going on, certainly never heard anything like it from flat IRs.

 

[JeffTD]

I'm really baffled that this has become a 'IRs are worse than cabs = subjective" discussion, as it's anything but.

The point of an impulse is to model a specific signal chain, be it a room or poweramp + cabinet + microphone combo. It's goal is to accurately simulate something.

When something fails to meet its goal, how can that be subjective? Unless you're going to try to argue that impulses do in fact meet the goal of accurately simulating a mic'd cabinet (please, PLEASE try to make this argument), then how are you going to say that it's successive is subjective?

That's like arguing that the CLA 1176 Bluey plugin being worse than the 1176 Rev A hardware unit is a subjective, opinion-based matter. Goals were not met, thus result of the action is not as good as the original.


Seriously - are you guys going to tell me that the US losing the goddamn Vietnam War is a subjective issue?

 

[drew_drummer]

I think all Jeff is saying is that yes, he is interested in the tech, so don't tell him to shut up. And yes, it is annoying when people who should know better, seem happy to settle for crap modelling of a guitar cab.

I think it's wishful thinking and deliberate self-deception to pull the subjectivity card - just my opinion mind

 

[Skaldir]

Ok, here's the promised IR test.
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...ate-ir-nebula-real-deal-test.html#post9841787

 

[Kazrog]

I think all Jeff is saying is that yes, he is interested in the tech, so don't tell him to shut up. And yes, it is annoying when people who should know better, seem happy to settle for crap modelling of a guitar cab.

I think it's wishful thinking and deliberate self-deception to pull the subjectivity card - just my opinion mind

Deciding whether or not it's "crap" is the subjective part. My point was that IRs are the current state of the art in cabinet modeling, that cabinet modeling can (and will) improve over time, and that I'm one of the people working on improving it as we speak.

I think we all agree that IRs are lacking the nonlinearity of miked cabinet recordings, because that is absolute fact. Where we disagree is whether or not that nonlinearity is something we consider essential enough to our guitar tone as to make the lack of it totally unbearable.

All I was saying was that until next-generation cabinet simulation technology begins to appear, bashing on current IR based solutions is getting none of us anywhere. We're all intimately aware of the limitations of IRs, and it's not doing us any good to keep rehashing the same discussion over and over.

 

[Kazrog]

When something fails to meet its goal, how can that be subjective?

Speaker cabinets are at least 90% linear, and 90% is not a failing grade. That said, the last 10% is as important to me as it is to you, hence I'm investing a massive amount of time and resources into replicating it. It's an obsession, but it also hasn't blinded me to the reality that miking up a cabinet isn't the only way to get a good sound or to make meaningful art.