Retarded preamp questions..

[Backe]

How do you hook-up an external preamp properly?

I'm a bit ashamed. I've been doing this (100% ITB) for a couple of years now, but only used very basic hardware. I'm planning on opening my own studio pretty soon, something basic Foundation-esque and I'm thinking of getting some cool preamps to play with, mainly for drums and vocals. Because I might have a budget for that. So if you buy let's say a pretty expensive and professional stereo mic pre (API, Neve, UA, w/e), what is the best way to hook it up? I'm a Cubase guy, tried PT but it just wasn't my thing. So I was thinking about these new Steinberg MR816's firewire 8ch's, tried two of those daisy-chained a couple of weeks ago with pretty sweet results. But could I use an external mic pre with these? The idea I've gotten is that you simply plug it in before the soundcard, the preamp boosts the signal up to level instead of the stock pre, hence yielding a cleaner result in terms of signal. Am I totally on the wrong path here? Because my second thought is "a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link", so that putting an external mic pre before the stock pre would just cause the stock pre to "muddy up" the signal again. And would preamps be worth the money and would it pay off in my productions?

Answers (and advice on pre's!) are greatly appreciated! Thanks

 

[jipchen]

Normally if you get higher quality preamps, you bypass the interface's pres - for example by going into the line level input on the fireface.
Two preamps in a row seem strange to me, and it's likely to distort even if you don't add any gain on the second preamp (because even "0" does add gain).
Your interface has ADAT, you can get an (8 channel) ADAT converter to hook the new preamps up. That way you could use better conversion but it's not very cheap.

EDIT: Just realized you don't already have the Steinberg interface. You could get a Fireface 800, a very reliable and professional interface. It has 4 built-in preamps and 6 free line inputs for external preamps. You can also add two ADAT preamps/converters with eight channels each and one S/PDIF pre with 2 channels (API A2D for example).
There are other very good interfaces of course, I just mentioned the Fireface because I know it's good and it has the free inputs - though hooking up external preamps to an interface (through the line-ins) will work fine with pretty much every audio-interface on the market imho.

 

[Trevoire520]

As already said, you can connect your external pre to a line input on your interface. Though depending on the interface the signal might be still running through the preamp circuitry. Not ideal. If you need a cheap interface that bypasses the preamps when using the line level inputs then go for a Profire 2626.

Some preamps (API A2D, Audient MICO, ART Digital MPA, DBX 386, etc) have a SPDIF output built in, so you can just hook this up to the SPDIF in on your interface, sync it up and you're good to go.

Alternatively you can get a AD Converter and use this to plug into your interface via a ADAT or SPDIF input. Again the Profire is a good budget choice as it can work as a standalone preamp & AD converter.

 

[timislegend]

mic - pre input - pre output - interface line level input - done!


one example would be phantom power ...if you are using a condenser mic and you supply it with 48v prior to the audio interface you can introduce a signature gain stage at that source. where you will hear the result at whatever output source (that is routed from the mic pre to whatever mtr).

mic preamps are great to think about but in the long run you should most likely consider higher end converters; like rme/apogee/lynx therefore in this case and many like it, you will not be sacrificing a lower quality a/d conversion (which imo is the most important asset to capturing quality material).




edit: yesss! definitely what everyone else said!

 

[jipchen]

Btw, this should be in the "Equipment" forum. You might want to post a link to this thread here: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/andy-sneap/652343-need-thread-moved.html
(So Lasse can move it)

 

[Fbarre]

Or another way would be: microphone> external preamp input> external preamp output> external converter input> external converter output via aes/ebu or spdif into your interface. This would be if you wanted to use external conversion as well.

 

[jimwilbourne]

I had no idea you could buy external converters.
Can someone point me in the right direction for researching this?

 

[jipchen]

I had no idea you could buy external converters.
Can someone point me in the right direction for researching this?

http://www.sweetwater.com/c796--AD_DA_Converters ?
That's how it's done if you have a lot of "preamp-only" devices and don't have a HD rig or have one but don't want to use the Digidesign 192 or 96 I/Os.. Interface with lots of ADAT / AES / S/PDIF / MADI connections and a couple of converters.
I guess the popular ones are Apogee Rosetta 800, AD-16 / DA-16, RME ADI 8 DS / QS, Lynx Aurora etc.

 

[Backe]

so if I use external conversion (through i.e. adat) the interface itself does not affect the signal at all? and how does the fireface 800 compare to the ADI-8 in terms of conversion?

 

[jipchen]

Well kind of, if the interface is the masterclock the interface does play a (rather small) role. If you use either external clocks or the ADAT unit (be it preamp+converter or converter only) as the masterclock, the interface has practically nothing to do with the sound.. besides passing it to the computer I guess Preamplification is done by your preamps and the conversion solely by the converter. Only the digital signal is passed to the interface, bitrate and bitdepth are set directly in the converter.. I don't see how it could audibly affect the signal (besides clocking). But I might be wrong here.

When using ADAT or S/PDIF or multiple digital devices in general, you will need to clock all of them properly. Only one device can be the masterclock and all others are slaved to it. Most but not all preamps with A/D and A/D converters can be used as either the master or slave.

 

[Backe]

so you logically use your "best" device as your master clock? or is it the final stage in the signal (whatever's passing it on to the computer)?

 

[jipchen]

Yeah you'll want to use the one with the best master clock - whatever unit that is, hehe. Honestly, as long as it's stable and you don't experience audible jitter I don't think it's very important but people on gearslutz seem to hear a big difference comparing different masterclocks (like the Apogee Big Ben or Antelope Isochrone OCX). It depends on the gear you'll get really, sometimes you can only use let's say the external converter's clock because otherwise one unit couldn't be clocked correctly. You can clock via S/PDIF, ADAT or Wordclock. Wordclock is cool because you can distibute the signal to all units in your setup (that accepts it), but for example in my studio I use the ADAT Preamp as the masterclock and slave my Fireface to it, because I don't need a wordclock cable this way (it's done via ADAT). If I bought another ADAT or S/PDIF device I'd need to use WC.. and then I'd need a resistor for the last device in the chain etc etc. Way too much hassle haha
By the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_clock
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/jitter1_e.html

 

[BLUElightCory]

...but people on gearslutz seem to hear a big difference comparing different masterclocks (like the Apogee Big Ben or Antelope Isochrone OCX).

I just wanted to wade in really quick because I've seen a lot of this too. As an owner of an Apogee Big Ben clock (converters are Digi 192 and Focusrite ISA428 A/D) I can tell you that the difference, if any, is FAR from "big," "night and day," or any of the other superlatives those guys tend to throw around. I hear barely any difference, and even THAT could just be psychological bias. I can say that the quality of the converter is far more important that having a super-duper master clock.

 

[jipchen]

Thanks man, I was kinda suspicious anyway because, well.. it's Gearslutz. But I was still kinda GASing for one haha. You cured me for now

 

[timislegend]

those clocks are great but it's just a bunch of back-patting mumbo jumbo.

i owned a digi/apogee/lavry

all great... but not for the money in terms of quality vs. necessity


i purchased a bla micro clock and it completely rivals the others but it is a fraction of the cost ($500).

the dudes at bla really know what they are doing and the gear they make has made me think twice about always "going big".


synopsis: (some equipment i use at home)

ff800
micro clock
vintech va573's
adam a7's
lavry da10