Sagovindars Boning / Alvefard [Audio CD] Otyg
- Thread starter vintersorgbork
- Start date
Vampyrian
Vault Dweller
Why should I be polite when it comes to these kinds of matters? Stuff like this is much, much worse than people who rip albums and post mp3s them on the net for people to download for free. At least in my eyes. These people are actually trying to make money from it. Somebody stole something from an artist you supposedly respect and admire... and you're perfectly willing to actually give money to that person for it? Well bravo. I'm a Vintersorg collector as well, I own every album. But I WILL NOT buy anything that he's not signed off on himself.
i explained my reasons without being offensive, why can't you do the same?
as i said everyone is free to do what he wants, and i don't care, at the end everyone will have to do with his conscience not with mine, i'm the only one who does.
i don't want to give them money, i just want to have a thing that i desperatly want to have. maybe you have a cassette of the demos? i don't ! i wasn't so lucky!
i don't have anything, only an handful of unlistenable mp3s (and yes the cds seem to be a little remastered and different from the mp3) of a very very bad quality, and i'm tired to listen to them, because they are horrible while the songs are so beautiful, and they don't have their justice...
and those people who steal the albums and put them on the net were the ones who made me know vintersorg as an artist, and made me buy 17 original albums of him. i don't see the evil in this....i don't see mp3 as only a negative thing.
i know piracy is wrong and i'm utopistically (?!? is it right?) against piracy but when i open up my eyes and meet the reality this what i see: the cost of 5 cds is 1/8 of a medium italian salary, and to eat is more importan than to have original cds, I suppose....so....sometimes i think is the musical industry's fault, if piracy have grown so strong, prices can't be so high. (i still don't understand why the dvds price is lowering day by day while the cds price is getting higher and higher)
of course there some idiots out there, but i'm sure i'm not speaking of anyone of this forum, just take a look the "the last cd you bought" thread.
Sure looks legit, they got the spelling right and all...this is what i've found searching the net, it also looks very nice:
Galdersång was never released publically, right? Only sent to various record companies.I know that "Bergtagen" was released on cassette, but I don't know about the two others. If you look at the cover from "Galdersång..." it sure looks as if it's also cassette only. Therefore, I'm pretty sure those CD-copies that mysteriously have appeared are bootlegs.
But yeah, I would buy them as well if I ever came across them
Svarthjärtad
Iskungen
I can respect Vampyrian's statement. It is wrong, I must admit that. They may as well just release his music with their band name on it. Hehe. Same thing almost. But I also see your point, Val. For us dedicated fans, it is nice to have something like this come along. And it is up to us to feel what we want, happy or guilty.
There is not a person in the world that wishes all Otyg releases were re-released like Älvefärd and S.B. was not too long ago. But when it does come to the fact that these people ripped him off (and didn't even do it correctly, the spelling sucks) to make money, you're kind like spiting in the face of Mr. V.
If it was approved, then I'd buy it. But judging by the artwork, it wasn't. So therefore, even if I will not buy this.
This is also my own opinion.
There is not a person in the world that wishes all Otyg releases were re-released like Älvefärd and S.B. was not too long ago. But when it does come to the fact that these people ripped him off (and didn't even do it correctly, the spelling sucks) to make money, you're kind like spiting in the face of Mr. V.
If it was approved, then I'd buy it. But judging by the artwork, it wasn't. So therefore, even if I will not buy this.
This is also my own opinion.
Svarthjärtad;8202305 said:
and i respect your opinion 'cause you expressed it in a civilized manner!
i know it is wrong, but what can i do?
there's not another edition of those demos, i'm not choosing an unauthorized version having the possibility to buy an authorized one.... do you understand what i mean? hope andreas will forgive this "weakness" of mine, how can i call it in other way?
anyway we are talking a lot but maybe with no sense, maybe i will never find it and buy.
and if one day there will be finally the hoped official release be sure i will buy it, as i've always did!
Vampyrian
Vault Dweller
What can you do? NOT BUY IT! Don't support these moochers! And stop being a daft bint about it. You don't respect mine or Svart's opinion regardless of how they were delivered. You obviously just don't get it.=( Like he said, you're kinda spitting in Mr. V's face.='( 'weakness', I don't have physical copies of the demos either, too bad. Would I want to have 'em? OF COURSE! Regardless of that, I'm not about to pay THIEVES to get some half-assed ripoffs. I will only buy them if they are ever rereleased officially (and ONLY then). I guess some fans are just more loyal than others.:/ It's wrong. Regardless of how you look at it, it's simply WRONG. Why the hell are we even talking about this here? It's disrespectful.
Please you people who are planning on stealing V's music or paying other people for stealing it, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT AAAAA!! This is NOT the place for it. Well whatever. I'm done at least. People who are respectful enough not to go for these ripoffs, bravo.<3 Keep buying official releases and stay solid!
Please you people who are planning on stealing V's music or paying other people for stealing it, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT AAAAA!! This is NOT the place for it. Well whatever. I'm done at least. People who are respectful enough not to go for these ripoffs, bravo.<3 Keep buying official releases and stay solid!
Allfader
Kvelding
THIS. A remastered version of the 3 demos, released by mr V himself would be beyond amazing.
First of all, Mr V is the only one who can say if that release is authorized or not. I hope he can gives us some words about this.
Everything we are talking now is just speculation, since no one has a copy to check if it is a Napalm Records release or something licenced/authorized by the label/artist.
Now I continue...I understand and support what Vampyrian/Svart are saying. I own each album mr V has released with Vintersorg (even more than 2 versions of some albums), Otyg, Borknagar, Havayoth and Waterclime. Also I have Cronian's Terra and Fission's Crater, but if I see that Otyg digi in a store, a I would think about to buy it (well, the mispelled title is something I can't endure to look
and of course I always check the editions cause some 'licenced releases' are known for the poor quality, another ones are beautiful and totally legal, therefore, it's more possible that I won't buy it). @Lefay: if you want to but it, it's your choice, but to say that the cd's are expensive is not a really valid excuse to just download music/buy unauthorized releases and to make the artist gets nothing, specially non mainstream acts like Vintersorg projects, unless the artist himself has distributed his material on the net, via free download (Please notice that I'm not putting some guilt on you, I'm just using you as an example, since you said that...).
If you can't afford to buy the albums, that's sad but it's the way it is on life. If you can't afford to buy a car, would you steal it? it's the same in my eyes.
For me has been hard to get those cds and dvds, but when I play the album and I hear that sound quality + the artwork - or the dvd quality image - I feel totally rewarded.
Some time ago Mr V talked about this and he was very clear: he don't support piracy. If you want to share his thought, great; if that's not the case...well, it's up to you.
do you want to shine in front of andreas eyes?
okey, no problem, you can do it, bravi! (you all seem to like this word, but it's bravo as the masculine form, brava for femminine and bravi as plural form, this way is correct!)
you are the loyal fans, i'm the nasty one...
what else can i say?
i really don't believe that nowadays there's still people who doesn't download ANYTHING!
but there's people who download and then buy cds, and people that only donwload and that's the difference to me.
you're treating me as i only stealed andreas music, i've all the 3 borknangar with him (and also the others without him cause i love the band) 7 vintersorg (plus one double copy of till fjalls in digipack), the 2 cronian, the 2 otyg, havayoth and crater of fission (just because i cannot find pain parade)... plus more others 500 cds (not so many but that's the end of my financial possibility, i've renouced to so many things to build up this little collection)
but i'm not loyal the same....okey i can survive to this.
@ allfader: i think the prices of the cds are one of the causes of this epidemy called download.
i don't know if it's only here but cds are really expensive.
the question is: who takes all this money?
i'm trying to explain the better i can (sorry for my bad english). there's a team who works on a cd of how many people? the group itself, the sound engineers, the registration's study staff and maybe some other people i don't know. how many? 20, 30 people?
how many people works on the making of a film? 300/400? maybe more? costumists, actors, crew, directors, and so on...persons that must be payed for their work.
now comparing the costs of the making of the 2 pieces (a cd and a film) you must tell me why if i enter the cd shop in my city i have to pay 20 euros for a cd and with the same price in go home with 3 dvds? there must be a reason for it? there must be something wrong! who is growing fat on this? not the bands i suppose..... at first dvds were expensive too because they were a new tecnology, and as for all the new tecnologies you have to pay a high price if you want to have them, and i can accept this. then dvds became older (nowadays) and prices have lowered as it always works (do you remember the first ldc or plasma tvs? now shops are throwing them in your back).. the cd is very old now but despite of this prices getting higher year after year.
that's what i criticize of the music industry.
okey, no problem, you can do it, bravi! (you all seem to like this word, but it's bravo as the masculine form, brava for femminine and bravi as plural form, this way is correct!)
you are the loyal fans, i'm the nasty one...
what else can i say?
i really don't believe that nowadays there's still people who doesn't download ANYTHING!
but there's people who download and then buy cds, and people that only donwload and that's the difference to me.
you're treating me as i only stealed andreas music, i've all the 3 borknangar with him (and also the others without him cause i love the band) 7 vintersorg (plus one double copy of till fjalls in digipack), the 2 cronian, the 2 otyg, havayoth and crater of fission (just because i cannot find pain parade)... plus more others 500 cds (not so many but that's the end of my financial possibility, i've renouced to so many things to build up this little collection)
but i'm not loyal the same....okey i can survive to this.
@ allfader: i think the prices of the cds are one of the causes of this epidemy called download.
i don't know if it's only here but cds are really expensive.
the question is: who takes all this money?
i'm trying to explain the better i can (sorry for my bad english). there's a team who works on a cd of how many people? the group itself, the sound engineers, the registration's study staff and maybe some other people i don't know. how many? 20, 30 people?
how many people works on the making of a film? 300/400? maybe more? costumists, actors, crew, directors, and so on...persons that must be payed for their work.
now comparing the costs of the making of the 2 pieces (a cd and a film) you must tell me why if i enter the cd shop in my city i have to pay 20 euros for a cd and with the same price in go home with 3 dvds? there must be a reason for it? there must be something wrong! who is growing fat on this? not the bands i suppose..... at first dvds were expensive too because they were a new tecnology, and as for all the new tecnologies you have to pay a high price if you want to have them, and i can accept this. then dvds became older (nowadays) and prices have lowered as it always works (do you remember the first ldc or plasma tvs? now shops are throwing them in your back).. the cd is very old now but despite of this prices getting higher year after year.
that's what i criticize of the music industry.
Vampyrian
Vault Dweller
Nah I think I'll stick with 'Bravo' since it wasn't meant as an Italian word in the first place.
It's also used in English you know... just as I used it.But bravo still.:* Thanks for the free lesson.=D Also this is not about 'shining in V's eyes' dammit, it's about being respectful. This is his forum FFS!=D Not the forum of piratebay.
And you're talking about illegal downloading (which he's clearly stated that he does not approve of)/buying illegal ripoffs (which that thing clearly is) of his work... STOP PLEASE!=( What's the matter with you?:'(Let's all just... STOP.<3
Nah I think I'll stick with 'Bravo' since it wasn't meant as an Italian word in the first place.
this is what my dictionary says:
bravo: /brɑːˡvəʊ/ (italian) A interjection bravo! bene! B noun (plural bravi) ovazione, applauso.
Vampyrian
Vault Dweller
this is what my dictionary says:
bravo: /brɑːˡvəʊ/ (italian) A interjection bravo! bene! B noun (plural bravi) ovazione, applauso.
It's anglicized. A 'loanword'. Not meant to be a brain teaser really.
Google 'Anglicisation' or something and good luck.:*
Svarthjärtad
Iskungen
I am not against people buying this collection. I'm against the people that has made this.
What you do is up to you, and I understand what Lefay says about downloading. Sometimes, I download a few songs from an album to test it, if it is from a band I've never heard before. If I like it, then I buy the album, if not I delete the file. Downloading is also a totally different subject than this.
We're talking about people that has probably downloaded the collection of songs and created their own artwork using the official Otyg logo and selling it themselves for their own personal use.
My opinion as an artist:
If a die hard fan told me that he downloaded my albums illegally for his own personal use, I really wouldn't have a problem with it. Only for the fact that he is a die hard fine and appriciates my music so much and not selling or handing out copies of it. But if a person, die hard fan or not, was downloading my albums and making their own collection, I'd be furious.
All in all, I'm sure Mr.V knows that almost all of us here has the Otyg demos. It doesn't leave much to imagine. We're all die hard and dedicated fans and we ask for the songtexts for the songs on Bergtagen. Hehe. And you know what, I'm not going to deny the fact that I downloaded them. As I'm sure most of everybody here has as well. Of my understanding, the only way you would have got the actual copy of the demo, is if you knew him personally back then ...or baught it from somebody that had it. Which, let's face it... the chances are slim. So, we're all guilty of that. That doesn't make us bad fans, I don't think. Hell, we worship the ground he walks on(just a figure of speech). The demos are old as the hills. Classics and masterpeices, but still old.
As said, he made it very clear that he does not approve of piracy. Knowing this, you live with the guilt. But I am not against the buyer or consumer - I am against the creater or this album. It's a shame that a person would go these lengths to even make money. The bad person isn't one who buys this, but the ones that sells this. Downloading is one thing, but when you do this... then you are not even a fan. Or even human?
Selling this crap without guilt?
Those motherfuckers must PAY!
What you do is up to you, and I understand what Lefay says about downloading. Sometimes, I download a few songs from an album to test it, if it is from a band I've never heard before. If I like it, then I buy the album, if not I delete the file. Downloading is also a totally different subject than this.
We're talking about people that has probably downloaded the collection of songs and created their own artwork using the official Otyg logo and selling it themselves for their own personal use.
My opinion as an artist:
If a die hard fan told me that he downloaded my albums illegally for his own personal use, I really wouldn't have a problem with it. Only for the fact that he is a die hard fine and appriciates my music so much and not selling or handing out copies of it. But if a person, die hard fan or not, was downloading my albums and making their own collection, I'd be furious.
All in all, I'm sure Mr.V knows that almost all of us here has the Otyg demos. It doesn't leave much to imagine. We're all die hard and dedicated fans and we ask for the songtexts for the songs on Bergtagen. Hehe. And you know what, I'm not going to deny the fact that I downloaded them. As I'm sure most of everybody here has as well. Of my understanding, the only way you would have got the actual copy of the demo, is if you knew him personally back then ...or baught it from somebody that had it. Which, let's face it... the chances are slim. So, we're all guilty of that. That doesn't make us bad fans, I don't think. Hell, we worship the ground he walks on(just a figure of speech). The demos are old as the hills. Classics and masterpeices, but still old.
As said, he made it very clear that he does not approve of piracy. Knowing this, you live with the guilt. But I am not against the buyer or consumer - I am against the creater or this album. It's a shame that a person would go these lengths to even make money. The bad person isn't one who buys this, but the ones that sells this. Downloading is one thing, but when you do this... then you are not even a fan. Or even human?
Selling this crap without guilt?
Those motherfuckers must PAY!
Did they make any money off it?
Not the most profitable album to go through the trouble of pirating. Should have put their effort into Hannah Montana or something.
Not the most profitable album to go through the trouble of pirating. Should have put their effort into Hannah Montana or something.
Yes i know what an anglicisation is, I dont need to search with google or wikipedia.
The fact is that Ive searched the word on my English dictionary (not on the Italian dictionary) and it says that bravi is the correct plurar.
But maybe its wrong maybe the dictionary is too old anyway, it doesnt matter, I only wanted to be precise.
Svartjartad explained the matter of download better than I did.
Im sure everyone here has the demos on mp3s so we are all guilty for this.
I still think internet is good for publicity, especially for unknown or underground artists, a good chance to gain some attention (and this what myspace is , a sort of shop-window for so many bands), so dont see it as a bad thing.
I dont see the wrong also in downloading something with the intention to buy it, what I hate is falseness, I have always to say the truth even if I can get some hate, but its stronger than me, I hate false people and Im trying not be. I had a mp3 copy of some albums which I could not find for so many time, cause I cannot resist without listening to them, as for havayoth, I took 2 fucking years to find the album, and when I found it, the guy where I bought it was shocked cause I nearly started to cry saying to him thank you to infinity, he must have tought I was crazy! He really did not understand a such great joy.
I also think that support and loyalty to a band is represented also by going to concerts.
Theres a lot of people I know who has a such heavy ass that doesnt go anywhere, neighter for their favourite groups. I dont understand this. I try to go to the higher number of concerts I can, it doesnt matter to have to do 6 or 7 hours of travel, sleeping in the car, driving back home with eyes half closed from tiredness, arriving home at 5 or 6 in morning and having to go to work the same morning, just the time to have a shower, I dont care of how many money I have to pay for tickets, fuel and motorway tickets, I dont care that our car is dying (120.000 km in 4 years, and I live in a small city, so they have nearly all been made for going to concerts), because there's my heart and i'm doing all this with passion and love.
And I dont care to have a fucking compact car, which is not mine, but my boyfriends and I can use it sometimes, I could have bought a car if I saved some money not buying cds (we could have our asses on a fucking Mercedes if we didnt buy 1400 cds in all, he has the other 900), but Im not complaining, Im happy with that, was my choice, it was our choice, renouncing to something we considered non-essential and superfluous pro something we though was more important for us, a thing in which we believed and still . life is full of choices.
Think I have said everything I wanted to say, and as vampyriam asked I will stop speaking if this (even if it was a more general speech in this post)
The fact is that Ive searched the word on my English dictionary (not on the Italian dictionary) and it says that bravi is the correct plurar.
But maybe its wrong maybe the dictionary is too old anyway, it doesnt matter, I only wanted to be precise.
Svartjartad explained the matter of download better than I did.
Im sure everyone here has the demos on mp3s so we are all guilty for this.
I still think internet is good for publicity, especially for unknown or underground artists, a good chance to gain some attention (and this what myspace is , a sort of shop-window for so many bands), so dont see it as a bad thing.
I dont see the wrong also in downloading something with the intention to buy it, what I hate is falseness, I have always to say the truth even if I can get some hate, but its stronger than me, I hate false people and Im trying not be. I had a mp3 copy of some albums which I could not find for so many time, cause I cannot resist without listening to them, as for havayoth, I took 2 fucking years to find the album, and when I found it, the guy where I bought it was shocked cause I nearly started to cry saying to him thank you to infinity, he must have tought I was crazy! He really did not understand a such great joy.
I also think that support and loyalty to a band is represented also by going to concerts.
Theres a lot of people I know who has a such heavy ass that doesnt go anywhere, neighter for their favourite groups. I dont understand this. I try to go to the higher number of concerts I can, it doesnt matter to have to do 6 or 7 hours of travel, sleeping in the car, driving back home with eyes half closed from tiredness, arriving home at 5 or 6 in morning and having to go to work the same morning, just the time to have a shower, I dont care of how many money I have to pay for tickets, fuel and motorway tickets, I dont care that our car is dying (120.000 km in 4 years, and I live in a small city, so they have nearly all been made for going to concerts), because there's my heart and i'm doing all this with passion and love.
And I dont care to have a fucking compact car, which is not mine, but my boyfriends and I can use it sometimes, I could have bought a car if I saved some money not buying cds (we could have our asses on a fucking Mercedes if we didnt buy 1400 cds in all, he has the other 900), but Im not complaining, Im happy with that, was my choice, it was our choice, renouncing to something we considered non-essential and superfluous pro something we though was more important for us, a thing in which we believed and still . life is full of choices.
Think I have said everything I wanted to say, and as vampyriam asked I will stop speaking if this (even if it was a more general speech in this post)
Qu Appelle
Tree hugger
Svarthjärtad;8203940 said:
I don't have the Otyg demos.
However, I also don't support piracy, so I won't be buying them from this guy.
correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the demo tracks available (legally) on that fansite that went offline a while ago?
I forgot the name of the site, but there were all kinds of cool stuff on it, such as lyrics translations and live video footage. Too bad it's down though, hopefully the creator, someone from these forums, can bring it back!
I forgot the name of the site, but there were all kinds of cool stuff on it, such as lyrics translations and live video footage. Too bad it's down though, hopefully the creator, someone from these forums, can bring it back!
Svarthjärtad
Iskungen
I'm not sure. You could be correct.
Draugen will have to say.
But were they approved?
I do also download albums I already have. My cd drive in my computer is broken, I cannot copy songs for my iPod. So I download them. Is there wrong in that? I don't think so. I already have the album, but cannot put them on my iPod. If I didn't have to download them, I wouldn't
Still... even if there are some albums that I download(illegally), I don't give copies out or sell them. I keep them for myself. But I still continue to let other people know about the bands to show some support.
Take this as an example:
I would download the new Hammerfall album (using this as an example, because I just baught this today) illegally. I would NOT make copies to give or sell. Just for my own personal use. If I were talking to somebody, I would say to them: "Hey, check out Hammerfall. They are decent band, they just came out with a new record."
Not that I don't feel guilty of downloading illegally. I do! But I also continue to support that band as much as I can. If when I can buy the album, I will.
But I am not going to buy this album from them beause of what they are doing. As I say, they may as well, put Otyg songs on a cd and their own band name on the cover - pretty much the same. THIS IS WRONG!
There are good and bad in every wrong and then there is good and bad in every right.
Draugen will have to say.
But were they approved?
I do also download albums I already have. My cd drive in my computer is broken, I cannot copy songs for my iPod. So I download them. Is there wrong in that? I don't think so. I already have the album, but cannot put them on my iPod. If I didn't have to download them, I wouldn't
Still... even if there are some albums that I download(illegally), I don't give copies out or sell them. I keep them for myself. But I still continue to let other people know about the bands to show some support.
Take this as an example:
I would download the new Hammerfall album (using this as an example, because I just baught this today) illegally. I would NOT make copies to give or sell. Just for my own personal use. If I were talking to somebody, I would say to them: "Hey, check out Hammerfall. They are decent band, they just came out with a new record."
Not that I don't feel guilty of downloading illegally. I do! But I also continue to support that band as much as I can. If when I can buy the album, I will.
But I am not going to buy this album from them beause of what they are doing. As I say, they may as well, put Otyg songs on a cd and their own band name on the cover - pretty much the same. THIS IS WRONG!
There are good and bad in every wrong and then there is good and bad in every right.
What gets me is that the material we're talking about here being pirated is material that's not easy to get your hands on. I own 99.9% of all the music on my iTunes list; I shop on the iTunes store whenever humanly possible rather than buy physical CDs, but I have a huge CD collection. There is stuff out there that is a gigantic hassle, either because of rarity or because of geography, that I'm not able to get unless I download it. That's a fact. I'm not going to pay a premium to an ebay seller to acquire a legitimate copy of an album that's rare and no longer in print (unless I'm collecting that particular band's discography).
If bands don't rerelease material, and they have better things to do than to spend their time looking for distributing contracts for old material when only a couple of fans will buy it, then if you want it... you have to get it whatever way you can. Now, when you remaster material that's not yours without permission that's fucked up and you shouldn't do it. This situation happens a lot with videogames; some companies won't re-release games that are out of print, even if you literally email them asking to purchase a copy (I have done this), but they'll go after people distributing these games on file servers. You have no more copies of this game to sell, ever. I know intellectual property law is on the company's side, but if you're a consumer, well, you do have a choice.
Sorry for the rant. As only a last-resort downloader, I think the suggestion that downloading is wrong is juvenile.
If bands don't rerelease material, and they have better things to do than to spend their time looking for distributing contracts for old material when only a couple of fans will buy it, then if you want it... you have to get it whatever way you can. Now, when you remaster material that's not yours without permission that's fucked up and you shouldn't do it. This situation happens a lot with videogames; some companies won't re-release games that are out of print, even if you literally email them asking to purchase a copy (I have done this), but they'll go after people distributing these games on file servers. You have no more copies of this game to sell, ever. I know intellectual property law is on the company's side, but if you're a consumer, well, you do have a choice.
Sorry for the rant. As only a last-resort downloader, I think the suggestion that downloading is wrong is juvenile.
tobz
is where its at
I'm just curious; As selling pirated copies of music is illegal since it is some private person who makes money of it, and the artist/management doesn't get any of it, shouldn't it be equally illegal to sell/purchase used CD's (even if they are original)? The artist/management will never see any of these money either, only the person or store who is selling the item. Same deal, no?
And if so, you might as well shut down places like Ebay and other auction places, since they are per se illegal as well.
Now, I'm a big fan of Ebay and have found stuff there which I would never be able to find in other places (such as Till Fjälls digipack and Cosmic Genesis hoodie-shirt), so I wouldn't be happy to see it go, but when you think about it, the used market is just as bad as the piracy market... Just my two cents...
And if so, you might as well shut down places like Ebay and other auction places, since they are per se illegal as well.
Now, I'm a big fan of Ebay and have found stuff there which I would never be able to find in other places (such as Till Fjälls digipack and Cosmic Genesis hoodie-shirt), so I wouldn't be happy to see it go, but when you think about it, the used market is just as bad as the piracy market... Just my two cents...
Similar threads
