School Massacre in finland

[J.DavisNJ]

please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to sterotype you. Of cause you have your own opinion on that topic, which is fine to me. I'm just trying to understand why people think they can protect themselves by having guns, while the opposite is the case.

No problem dude, sorry if I got a bit heated...I just feel strongly about this.

That's what's great about living in the free world, we can all have our own opinions.

At least we are united by \m/



-Joe

 

[hoehlentroll]

that's true dude!

 

[xFkx]

Hmm, where I live (Poland) getting a gun is really really complicated, you have to undergo psychological evaluation etc.

I really like it that way couse we didn't have any school shootings in well... forever, and even most of the time regular crimes are commited with knifes couse even criminals have a hard time getting guns.

Remember, an illegal firearm could have been legal at some part of the time...

I mean, it's just my little thesis, becouse I believe there are nutcases everywhere, usa, germany, poland, but i think something happens in a nutcases head when he gets hold of a gun (like some sort of powertrip/psychosis) that triggers further actions.

just my 0.02

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Hmm, where I live (Poland) getting a gun is really really complicated, you have to undergo psychological evaluation etc.

I really like it that way couse we didn't have any school shootings in well... forever, and even most of the time regular crimes are commited with knifes couse even criminals have a hard time getting guns.

Remember, an illegal firearm could have been legal at some part of the time...

I mean, it's just my little thesis, becouse I believe there are nutcases everywhere, usa, germany, poland, but i think something happens in a nutcases head when he gets hold of a gun (like some sort of powertrip/psychosis) that triggers further actions.

just my 0.02

I think this is possible as well, but I have a hard time believing the physical gun itself is the sole reason for someone to commit a crime like this. There must be some sort of deep-seeded emotional issue at hand.

It's, of course, very unfortunate that these things happen. At the same time, banning guns completely would be a very brash decision and really is limiting one's individual freedom as a law abiding citizen.

-Joe

 

[hoehlentroll]

you know it's like banning tobacco. of course for some addicts it will be dramatic, but it will only be good for everyone! would you suffer any disadvantages if you don't own a weapon anymore?

 

[J.DavisNJ]

you know it's like banning tobacco. of course for some addicts it will be dramatic, but it will only be good for everyone! would you suffer any disadvantages if you don't own a weapon anymore?

Well, I can see your logic there...but to me that is unrealistic.

Well, I don't think I would "suffer" anything really, but I would be giving up a consititutional right in this country. To me that is a big deal. I take my personal freedom very seriously and am grateful that I have it.

Yes, I would miss enjoying shooting and having that protection in my home. But it is a moral issue of personal freedom if I'm talking about "the bigger picture." I wouldn't want history to be rewritten for a law like that. To me it isn't sensible and is unconstitutional.

-Joe

 

[hoehlentroll]

for me a bunch of laws is something a community agrees on and can be subject of change. actually it MUST be subject of change cause time doesn't stand still. I don't see a problem in making a amendment about that.

 

[J.DavisNJ]

for me a bunch of laws is something a community agrees on and can be subject of change. actually it MUST be subject of change cause time doesn't stand still. I don't see a problem in making a amendment about that.

Well, that's where you and I differ... No problem with that either. In this specific situation, I do have a problem with someone rewriting the second amendment.

-Joe

 

[Ermz]

At the same time, banning guns completely would be a very brash decision and really is limiting one's individual freedom as a law abiding citizen.

I think that statement may make more sense to somebody living in the US, or another country where guns are easily obtained, rather than the rest of the western world.

It's not like a person would be denied food, electricity, healthcare... it's guns we're talking about. These are instruments designed to incapacitate or kill another living being. That is their sole purpose. Why in the hell would a 'law abiding citizen' ever want to own one of these? It just sounds downright contradictory.

Don't get me wrong, I love my liberties as much as the next guy, and I actually see your point in a lot of what's been written here, but the angle that banning legally owned firearms is somehow infringing on a person's civil rights is just plain bullshit to me. Like I said, it may make a lot more sense to you in the states, than it does to me here in Australia (or as I like to refer to it, mini-China that has an identity crisis and wants to be America).

If banning legally obtained firearms can reduce the gun mortality rate by even 1, is it not worth it? From what I understand, these school shooters mostly obtained their firearms legally and were members of gun clubs and whatnot. It's obvious that the safeguards we have in place (psyche evaluations etc.) are ineffective in diagnosing psychosis. When you allow someone to keep a gun in their home, you're giving them the power to give life or death over an unarmed person at any time. The general populace aren't lucid or screwed straight enough to be given that sort of power.

The only reason, as mentioned above, that I can see for needing to own one at home is self-defense. But even so, as hoehlentroll mentioned, you endager yourself by taking on an armed perpetrator.

As much as I disagree with the premise and example set by giving a crook the money they came to steal (I'd much rather give it to em with interest ie. with a bullet, or knife in the throat), you have to sort of balance out the cons and pros of allowing people to keep these weapons in their homes. Self defense should be the only reason it's considered, not civil liberties. That's simply an excuse by those who don't want to give up the power of owning a firearm - A firearm which no law abiding citizen should have a need to possess (apart from self defense, which leads to the ongoing catch 22).

 

[J.DavisNJ]

I understand your point of view for sure. I do think that our views/opinions are different due to the fact that our laws are different and therefor engrained in us differently.

To me, if gun ownership was stated as being a privilege, then I would be able to side with you more. But, it is not. Why should the "right to bare arms", be any different than one's right to a fair and just trial, or their simple civil liberties as a human being? That's how it has always been in our country, and that's why I had issues with it being rewritten.

I do respect your point of view, and I might very well have the same view if I lived in Australia. Many people here have been responsible gun owners for years. Not just for target practice, or to become better at shooting human beings (I kid ! ), but as a pasttime.

I agree, that a psych evaluation cannot always determine what one is capable, but then again...what really can? We are surprised every day at what certain people are capable of.

The point I'm trying to make is, while i sympathize with your views and ultimately respect them, I cannot agree with wanting to do away with the second amendment or banning private gun ownership completely. I just can't. It goes against my values, and I what I consider to be part of what makes me a free American. There will always be those that abuse their freedoms, and abuse their rights, but to punish an entire population of those that obey the rules and play by the book - is unjust to me.

I do think that guns are dangerous...in the wrong hands. I find the acts that these people commit despicable as well.

Plus, imagine the backlash that would ensue if our government banned all guns? It would probably be worse than before the ban, lol.

Just my $.02.

Take care,

-Joe

 

[SocialNumb]

By giving up our "right to bare arms" we give power to those who do bare arms. Besides I can kill you with a toothpick.

 

[Jarkko Mattheiszen]

 

[J.DavisNJ]

Hahahaha! That's amazing, thank you sir!

-Joe

 

[SocialNumb]

Thats great. haha!

 

[paladin shredder]

it is the american mentality that we have a legal right to own weapons, because that's what was written in our constitution by the founding fathers. but lets not forget why they wrote it in the first place. they had to defend themselves from an oppressive government, so they wanted to set a good foundation for their counrty by writing laws to restrain the government from infringing on the rights of the citizens. thats what government is for anyways right? to protect the rights and liberty of the people, not just to control them?

think about this. if there is a small group of people who have guns/superior weapons, they can control a much larger group of people without them. this takes place many times throughout history. think of all the people that have been imprisoned, tortured, raped, by a minority of people who had no regard for human life simply because they had the power to do so. it's the average working class citizen that cares about they saftey and security of human life, not some militant/government leader. you can't restrain guns from a free society of people because every once in a while some crazy motherfucker goes on a killing spree, because there are just some crazy motherfuckers in the world that will kill people if they have guns or if they have toothpicks (no offence SocilNumb). i'd rather the crazy motherfucker be a citizen that kills a few people, than a crazy motherfucker in charge of a military (hitler?)

i think we could all agree that if nobody in the world had guns, then the world would be a better place. but guess what? they exist! so people (good and bad) will have them. personally i don't own a gun, because i don't feel like i'm in any present danger. but i do like knowing that i have the ability to get one if, God forbid, i ever have to kill a motherfucker or three.

 

[SocialNumb]

I agree with you. One good reason to have guns is to protect us from our own government.