Scottish Independence - An outsiders perspective?

[Line666]

But there is a nasty anti-English undercurrent to some of what I've read, and I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't understand the anti-London comments either.

I think this is mostly to do with this:

Scotland has had free education at the expense of the English taxpayer for a long time.

Whilst aspects of the independence campaign do have components of anti-englishness I think there is also aspects of this on the other side. I'm not saying you personally but there's a lot of english people that get too much into the daily mail propaganda and then sidetrack from this argument to label Scotland like we've been pawing resources off of the English taxpayer - which simply isn't true.

Scotland has a higher cost per head of population but you have to remember that it also equates to a third of the land mass of the UK for which infrastructure has to be developed with only less than 10% of the population and contributes more in revenue and taxes than it uses to make up for this.

The problem with devolution in its current state is that it creates arguments like this one because we have had the opportunity to create better political choices - in the case of independence this does away with such rub and minor hostility.

 

[Trevoire520]

But there is a nasty anti-English undercurrent to some of what I've read, and I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't understand the anti-London comments either.

Unfortunately there's twats on both sides of the debate. Just as there's some stupid Scots who hate the English, there's English who believe that the Scottish are just subsidy junkies (if we were then Westminster would be all too happy to get rid of us)

I even had a moron on Youtube tell me that England would go to war with us to take the oil rigs and wind turbines as they belong to England, and that Scots were uncultured tree-dwellers before the English conquered us and made us civilized (seriously, I'm not making that up)

Anti-London comments I would think aren't about the people, but about the frustration of a political system that prioritizes London and the south east above everywhere else, because that's where the financial sector is based and that's where the marginal seats are that win elections. At least that's my view on it.

 

[drew_drummer]

Please post your evidence that it is a myth. Because everything I've seen paints it as accurate. The UK generates a certain amount of taxes per year. Some of those taxes cover for the Scottish decision to provide free education. The majority of the taxes generated in the UK are generated by English workers. Thus my sentence stands - Scotland has had free education at the expense of the English taxpayer.

And what do you get whenever you bring this up? You get called a Daily Mail reader or you get told that you're falling for a myth... but no-one ever posts numbers, statistics, or evidence.

PS: I've not posted statistical evidence, because I am not making a statistical claim. I am making a fairly clear logical connection between various true statements.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/Sim...ett_formula_Scottish_spending_settlement-2693

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_scotland_contribute_more_in_taxes_than_rest_of_uk-34755

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/08/students-free-scottish

No Daily Fail links at all

But lets say I am wrong, and that it doesn't chiefly come from English taxpayers. Okay, granted I may be incorrect there. Post your evidence.

 

[drew_drummer]

Anti-London comments I would think aren't about the people, but about the frustration of a political system that prioritizes London and the south east above everywhere else, because that's where the financial sector is based and that's where the marginal seats are that win elections. At least that's my view on it.

I think you're right. But as a Midlander whose life was effectively turned around by London, I get brushed up the wrong way by those sorts of comments.

London changed my life. No question. I was on a path to probably eventual suicide when I was a teen. It makes me laugh now, because it just seems so absurd!

Coming to London gave me life experiences that I will never forget - short of dementia! - and introduced me to so many great people, and of course my wife.

London rocks, despite all the shit that comes with it!

 

[Line666]

Please post your evidence that it is a myth. Because everything I've seen paints it as accurate. The UK generates a certain amount of taxes per year. Some of those taxes cover for the Scottish decision to provide free education. The majority of the taxes generated in the UK are generated by English workers. Thus my sentence stands - Scotland has had free education at the expense of the English taxpayer.

And what do you get whenever you bring this up? You get called a Daily Mail reader or you get told that you're falling for a myth... but no-one ever posts numbers, statistics, or evidence.

PS: I've not posted statistical evidence, because I am not making a statistical claim. I am making a fairly clear logical connection between various true statements.

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/Sim...ett_formula_Scottish_spending_settlement-2693

https://fullfact.org/factchecks/does_scotland_contribute_more_in_taxes_than_rest_of_uk-34755

http://www.newstatesman.com/uk-politics/2011/08/students-free-scottish

No Daily Fail links at all

But lets say I am wrong, and that it doesn't chiefly come from English taxpayers. Okay, granted I may be incorrect there. Post your evidence.

That argument only holds up if Scotland didn't generate its own tax and additional revenues that contribute to the net UK economy. However, since you asked:

Centre for Economics and Business Research
http://www.cebr.com/reports/how-money-in-some-regions-subsidises-others/

Interestingly in the light of the independence debate, Scotland receives no net subsidy. Using the Aberdeen University split of the oil and gas revenues (which gives Scotland 83%) the oil and gas revenues exactly cancel out the fiscal transfers from the non oil sector.

Also theres no way in hell I'd count the new statesman as an unbiased source and the other link proposes a resources share by population percentage which doesn't correlate with the way resource divisions are drawn by borders.

 

[Trevoire520]

I'll check out those links man, and come back with some of my own. I know that Scotland generates more tax per head than the rest of the UK, and that we only get a small amount of that tax revenue back to spend.

As I've said if we were subsidised by England then the Tories would only be too happy to get rid of us, but clearly that's not the case.

 

[drew_drummer]

BTW: I am vaguely pro-Independence, as I think it will be an interesting experiment, maybe forming a blueprint for the rest of the UK. And I'm not at all anti-Scottish.

 

[Trevoire520]

It would seem Owen beat me to it,

Here's some figures from the Better Together campaign:

As a percentage Scotland contributes more to the UK economy (9.9%) than it gets back (9.3%)

As a cold hard number it looks like it's the other way round (£56.9bn tax generated vs £64.5bn spent)

This difference is why there's a bit of a debate about it, there's two ways of looking at the numbers.

But what you have to remember is that the extra spending isn't a gift from the English taxpayers back pocket, it's debt taken on by the UK government that we have to pay back.

And while fullfact bang on about geographic/population percentage of north sea oil/gas revenue, there's no existing precedent that I'm aware of to divide oil by population, it's covered under international maritime law and belongs to Scotland.

 

[Line666]

Yeah, essentially what those figures say is that the UK taxpayer generates around 574 billion in revenue of which 517million is generated by England/NI/Wales and 56.9 by Scotland.

The whole UK spend is 693 billion - of which 119billion is debt.

If Scotland has a 7.6bn deficit (13% of its tax revenue) then the rest of the UK has a a 111.4 billion deficit (21% of its tax revenue) but this is shared UK debt so this is attributed to Scotland too essentially England can't be subsidising Scotland because it doesn't actually have the money to do so - ergo if anyone is subsidising anyone then Scotland is subsidising the rest of the UK as it requires less borrowing to maintain current spending levels.

Also this doesn't take into consideration localised projects that are put under overall UK spend - London olympics did wonders for tourism in London but it was written off as a UK spend for example (9.3 billion) and going by current UK taxation levels that means that Scotland paid around 900 million into that which it wouldn't have done otherwise) - which interestingly enough would count for around 12% of Scotlands overall defecit.

 

[Mago]

I heared of it shortly in our news back somewhen...I think around the time the highland games where, they asked some people there what they think about it.

But I was already aware of the happening through your FB Trev haha

I'm not that well informed on that matter, but I say if you wanna be your own country go for it.
Just own it if it doesn't go well though^^

 

[P-E]

As an independentist from Québec, I support the independentist movement in Scotland. The rationale in favour of independence is much more complex, both rationally and emotionally, than what could fit on a forum post...

My short take on it is that there's not much good for a nation - in its cultural sense, not its usual anglo-saxon sense as a country - to be part of a country when it defines itself differently regarding its history, but also (and more importantly) the values of its people and their social, economical, or political priorities.

Contemporary nationalism isn't that much about where a people comes from, but mainly about where it wants to go. Looking at the electoral results of Scotland, for example, and comparing them to the rest of the UK, one can understand how for quite a few years they've been wanting to separate.

 

[Plendakor]

Reminds me a lot of our current situation (Qc like P-e) although I'm not very informed.

As long as my scotch stays the same price

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

I doubt the sky will fall if Scotland becomes independent, but I just hope people vote (as they should for anything, in any country) on the basis of coherent economic and political issues rather than rhetoric, which is especially prevalent when one party is, by definition, employing nationalism in its arguments. You could make a really compelling case for nationalism and independence after World War II, since colonial powers were running their colonies like private piggy banks, but the Scotland-UK-EU relationship is wholly different.

 

[Trevoire520]

Nationalism really isn't anything to do with it. Its about getting political control of our own country. It's a very wide ranging campaign from the scottish greens, snp, Scottish socialists, Radical independence, and a massive grassroots movement throughout all those in Scotland (even English people!)

 

[Trevoire520]

Things have got REALLY interesting now.

A government poll was released on sunday showing 51% yes 49% no,
Westminster are now shitting bricks,
The mainsteam media bullshit machine has gone into absolute overdrive!
All of a sudden there's reports of more devolution for Scotland (even though it's the same powers we were promised in March, but now there's a timetable to make it happen)
The Saltire (Scottish flag) has been raised at Downing Strret (where the PM lives) in order to woo us
The PM and the leaders of the other 2 main parties have dropped everything to head to Scotland and try to win more no votes (somehow I think they're going to achieve the opposite)

So after 307 years in the union, and with just 9 days till the vote, all of a sudden our existence is actually being acknowledged and the thought that we might actually leave the union is being taken seriously. I think it all reeks of trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Interesting days ahead folks!

 

[P-E]

Don't give in guys. We've had loads of promises here in Québec from the federal government that never went through, hopefully the Scots will learn of our mistakes.

I'll be cheering for the Yes for sure.

 

[Trevoire520]

I'll admit, the massive amount of scare stories currently being thrown around by the mainstream media have me worried, we've got banks saying they'll move out of the country (they warned the same before we voted for our own parliament in 1997 but are still here!) economists saying we'll be thrown into recession etc.

It's easy to see through them if you look into the background of the people talking (most are donors to the conservative party) and also the fact that they've all suddenly appeared in the last 2 days, but I'm unsure if the bulk of the population can keep their heads straight and see it for what it is. An intense campaign of fear and doubt designed to make people vote no.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Trevoire520]

On a cheerier note, this happened. I'm in fucking stitches!

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson...-rickshaw-playing?sub=3443419_3787456#204d8i7

 

[sprack]

I think what the banks mean is: "This is a golden opportunity for us to operate in a country that will be largely unregulated for some period of time. If on the off chance that they can't be persuaded into leaving us fat loopholes we may have to raise rates, withhold loans and close certain offices."

Kind of hoping you get independence so Ireland follows and closes the Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich.

 

[Trevoire520]

Been out and cast my vote this morning. I've never felt so excited and anxious in my life. The next 24 hours I'm going to be a nervous wreck.