Sign of weakness or display of courage?

[luke]

Originally posted by Jannet
Dictionary definition of selfish: n. Concerned only with oneself.

Since you've already posted half the fuckin dictionary on this thread, why don't you go and look up the meanings of "noun" and "adjective."

 

[Belial]

Quoted from: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/eponine/topten.html

2) People who are depressed all of the time need to snap out of it.

...Or get more exercise. Or smile. Or read the Bible. Or just not let it get to them. Or... well, you get the idea. Yes, these things can help, whether the depression is clinical or normal. (That's another thing, and let me make this perfectly clear: it is normal to feel depression, even prolonged depression, when things go wrong in your life. Clinical depression is a different entity, a disorder which doesn't necessarily respond to circumstances. Both deserve care and support, but one is an illness.) The trouble is, most people want to solve their friends' problems for them. These solutions and pearls of wisdom are more likely to make a depressed person resentful. Nobody wants their feelings trivialized, by hearing "You just ought to do this, or think this way..." What's more, depressive illness often makes it literally impossible for a person to do such things. If you wouldn't tell someone with a broken leg to run, you can't ask someone to get out more who is terrified of leaving their house.

What to do, in that case? Say, "I love you." Say, "I'll be there for you." And mean it. And do it. Offer a shoulder to cry on or arms to hide in. Be a source of support, not of answers and advice. And you will be helping your friend more than any suggestions ever could.

3) People mostly commit suicide because of failing an exam, because of being dumped by a partner, because of not getting a particular job or not getting into a particular college, etc...

Sometimes this happens... a person commits suicide in response to a single event. But no matter how important this event may be in his life, odds are there's a lot more involved. The number one cause of suicide is untreated depression, period. Depression can be a fatal disease, and suicide is the way it kills. It's harder to see it that way because on the surface, it is the person who does the deed. But it is a person under the influence of a very powerful illness, that makes it impossible for them to see the world clearly.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Metalmancpa, i thought it was about time for you to post on this thread.

I think that you've posted the best reply so far.

Suicide is a complex issue that can't be looked at as a 'general' thing.

 

[Jannet]

metalman, very good points made. I just have one question about the "none" section:

"None: when suicide is caused by depression, anxiety, etc. fueled by a chemical imbalance in the brain, that individual may really have little control over what their brain says to them."

Question: So when it is not fueled by a chemical imbalance of the brain (something which cannot be helped), but the person is just not capable of dealing with his/her problems, and views suicide as the only answer, does this person have control over their suicidal tendency?

Also: courage: n. the quality of mind that enables one to face danger with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.

self possession: n. Full command of one's faculties, feelings, and behavior.

Confidence: Self assurance.

Resolution: A course of action determined or decided on.

Bravery: courage (I hate these definitions).

Since these are the purest definitions of the words, there is absolutely nothing courageous about committing suicide. The only thing that comes close is the resolution aspect of it.

 

[Belial]

Just wanted to provide slightly more concrete resources and show that my arguments are not based entirely on my opinion. They are also based on my personal experience with depression and suicidal tendancies, as well as what I have read on the subject.

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by luke
Since you've already posted half the fuckin dictionary on this thread, why don't you go and look up the meanings of "noun" and "adjective."

Oops...a blunder. I apologize, but the meaning is correct. And look, I posted MORE definitions...we'll all be word experts before the night is over...

 

[MetalManCPA]

Originally posted by Jannet
metalman, very good points made. I just have one question about the "none" section:

"None: when suicide is caused by depression, anxiety, etc. fueled by a chemical imbalance in the brain, that individual may really have little control over what their brain says to them."

Question: So when it is not fueled by a chemical imbalance of the brain (something which cannot be helped), but the person is just not capable of dealing with his/her problems, and views suicide as the only answer, does this person have control over their suicidal tendency?

Also: courage: n. the quality of mind that enables one to face danger with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.

self possession: n. Full command of one's faculties, feelings, and behavior.

Confidence: Self assurance.

Resolution: A course of action determined or decided on.

Bravery: courage (I hate these definitions).

Since these are the purest definitions of the words, there is absolutely nothing courageous about committing suicide. The only thing that comes close is the resolution aspect of it.

First - I said "pure" without actually having a dictionary in front of me - so it was a bad use of my "interpretation" of the word courage. My 2nd guts sentence should of been my only comment. (although suicide IS resolution)

As far as my "none" comment - that is the perplexing part of dealing with mental illness - can one ever REALLY know what piece is chemical and uncontrollable. With obvious triggers like being sexually abused, the profession uses these as cause points - and uses psycho-analysis as the main source of treatment, with possible medications secondary. If there are no "visible" signs of a past event - you would definately "think" that chemical imbalance has a lot more to do with the depressive and suicidal state. That chemical effect which most say is seratonin based can really mess up ones perspectives. But there are no definitives here - one can never, and I truely mean never, be 100% sure of the root of a mentally ill persons problem. [IMO]

 

[Jannet]

What to do, in that case? Say, "I love you." Say, "I'll be there for you." And mean it. And do it. Offer a shoulder to cry on or arms to hide in. Be a source of support, not of answers and advice. And you will be helping your friend more than any suggestions ever could.

I truly was under the impression that with the addition of being supportive, it would have been helpful to give suggestions/advice, but I see that it only leads to resentment. I'll keep this in mind.

The number one cause of suicide is untreated depression, period. Depression can be a fatal disease, and suicide is the way it kills.

Completely and utterly agree. Note: UNTREATED depression. I've been trying to get this point across all along that depression/a suicidal mind is a disease and needs medical help.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Would you care to explain what you mean by "medical help"?

Do you use it as a broad definition of treatment?
Do you use it meaning doctors, with all their poisons (drugs! drugs!) helping you?

 

[Belial]

Originally posted by Belial
What's more, depressive illness often makes it literally impossible for a person to do such things. If you wouldn't tell someone with a broken leg to run, you can't ask someone to get out more who is terrified of leaving their house.

Just wanted to highlight this particular point, as this is what me and Trapped have been saying all along.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

Exactly. You hit the nail right on the head with that one Belial.

 

[Sullen Jester]

Belial: very good, very strong point.

I guess I can use this to amplify one thing: you can't tell a misanthrope to go to group therapy.

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

exactly.

That would be like telling an alcoholic to go to an AA meeting at a pub...

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by Sullen Jester
Would you care to explain what you mean by "medical help"?

Do you use it as a broad definition of treatment?
Do you use it meaning doctors, with all their poisons (drugs! drugs!) helping you?

Treatment - medical help/support groups/Behavioral modification/Doctors/medications.

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by Belial


Just wanted to highlight this particular point, as this is what me and Trapped have been saying all along.

Yeah, but it's so concise and clear. I guess it was the same lack of understanding that you had of my posts, since both sides had so much to say. Perhaps we both missed our points? I think so.

 

[Sullen Jester]

And for someone like me, who is against bs doctors, with their medical "aids" (Lets help him by 'curing' this problem, and giving him THESE sideeffects.. let me see.. liver problems.. hearing loss.. oh yeah, I couldn't forget this one: chemical castration!) you would suggest going to a doctor, getting a hefty prescription, a lot of drugs, and pay for it? Give them money for death?

I can jump off a bridge, save money, and not make any bs doctors happy.

(No, I am not trying to be spiteful towards you, if I come off that way)

 

[RETIREDTrapped]

perhaps, but maybe we all hold our own views so strongly that we are unwilling to accept anything but what we beleive in.

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by Sullen Jester
And for someone like me, who is against bs doctors, with their medical "aids" (Lets help him by 'curing' this problem, and giving him THESE sideeffects.. let me see.. liver problems.. hearing loss.. oh yeah, I couldn't forget this one: chemical castration!) you would suggest going to a doctor, getting a hefty prescription, a lot of drugs, and pay for it? Give them money for death?

I can jump off a bridge, save money, and not make any bs doctors happy.

(No, I am not trying to be spiteful towards you, if I come off that way)

If you need support, here's a shoulder to cry on....

 

[Sullen Jester]

Why thankyou..

This really is really just extending another point - we have one 'cure' for forty ailments.

If I don't want to go to the doctor, because I think they're going to kill me, am I fucked then?

I mean, once I don't want to do that, or if I hate people so much that I don't want to go to group therapy, is that it for me? Isn't there another option?

We need to be able to help everyone, not just the ones who fit into a certain group.

It's discrimination really, saying "You're a paranoid misanthope, piss off, we gave you two options, and thats all we're prepared to do"

 

[Jannet]

Originally posted by Trapped
perhaps, but maybe we all hold our own views so strongly that we are unwilling to accept anything but what we beleive in.

You said "MAYBE." So that means maybe not. You don't sound too sure... I answered my question, don't you think you should answer yours?