Belial
Rainbow Demon
I know, I'm looking into ways to fix it. Does anyone know of free web space that allows outside image-linking?
Sign of weakness or display of courage?
- Thread starter TheMindzI
- Start date
I know, I'm looking into ways to fix it. Does anyone know of free web space that allows outside image-linking?
Obyeybyeogone
New Metal Member
blakmetalemp
Armed to the teeeettthhh!
I can say I will NEVER contemplate suicide, ever again. I value life too much for that. I have myself to live for, then my son and family. And no, I don't know what will happen tomorrow - I can get hit by a truck and die for all I know, but I know what is happening right now, I know what my morals and beliefs are, I know how I deal with problems because I've been through many of them. No, my argument is that suicide is not right, PERIOD, not that it's not right for me: IT'S NOT RIGHT FOR ANYONE. IT'S A COP OUT. And I'm stating my reasons why. You don't have to agree with my reasons, but if you want to respond to them (which has been the case), then I will defend my position.
and another thing, no offense, i don't have anything personal against you jannet, but man am i glad i'm not married to you!
i WOULD kill myself!
......jk
i WOULD kill myself!......jk
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Jannet, I noticed that the one constant in every argument and debate you've been in is that you always end up with the exact same opinion as when you started and give only limited consideration to others' points.
They stay with you forever, but you deal with them and move on. What kinds of things can't you step away from that stay with you forever? One thing is a death of a close relative. So how are you going to deal with this? Kill yourself? I don't think so. You grieve, and as I said, you move on. Time heals all wounds, as the old adage goes, and for good reason. When my grandmother died, I felt like I was being swallowed in a pit of blackness. I screamed and cried for weeks. Slowly I stopped crying, and just accepted the fact of her passing. I still think about her, I still love her and hold many memories of her, and I look at pictures of her, but I NEVER contemplated ending it all because I was in so much emotional pain and my heart literally hurt.
Sullen Jester
Corporate Executive
Time does NOT heal all wounds, it can make them worse.
I myself know this, from experience. There was someone who was a big part of my life, a big part of me, but they're gone now. My life has been getting worse since then, and I find myself missing them more and more. The wound is not closing; the pain is not going away.
I know what a debate is, I'm sure that most (if not all) people on this board do, to.
I myself know this, from experience. There was someone who was a big part of my life, a big part of me, but they're gone now. My life has been getting worse since then, and I find myself missing them more and more. The wound is not closing; the pain is not going away.
I know what a debate is, I'm sure that most (if not all) people on this board do, to.
Then I'm being consistent. If my opinion changed, then it wouldn't be valid in any way. And no, this is not true. I consider the main ideas of your arguments. Then I respond. When have I only given limited consideration to others' points? The others' points is in opposition to my points, and not one person has given a convincing enough defense. If you have a convincing defense, I would be saying, "wow, you're right, I didn't see it that way." I have absolutely no problems admitting when I'm wrong or way off base.
Sullen Jester
Corporate Executive
If your opinion changed, then it can still be valid, if valid to begin with.
Everything you see, everything you hear, teaches you something.
If you read a real involved debate, you'll notice that the views are slightly different between answer - they've been modified. Adaptions to new knowledge, but their still that persons opinion. That person is still trying to get his/her point across, albeit a modified point.
If your opinion is the same throughout a whole argument, either your not learning, or your not admitting you've learnt, not admitting that you've changed your mind, however small a detail.
Apparently the rest don't. Since everyone is telling me to "shut up already, don't you get it"?
Anyway, I'm sorry you lost this person - again, it's a really horrible experience to go through that (I've lost more than one family member, 2 close, very close friends). I can't tell you what to do if your wound is not closing and the pain is not going away. Have you spoken to anyone about this besides us? Have you thought about joining a support group online, dealing with these same issues? I'm sure if you search you'll find forums directly linked to your situation. If that doesn't work? I don't know, talk to family members that you trust, take up a hobby that will redirect your pain, turn it into something constructive. There are options out there, and you'll never know if it works for you until you've tried them all. You are a special person, Belial, worth all the love, caring, and nurturing that is befitting a human being. Take care of yourself - I'm sure you'll find another special someone to fill the void. You are truly an important human being, you are intelligent and have much to offer to people listening to you. And you have much to offer of yourself, you seem like a sensitive person, since the loss of this loved one affected you so much. That is a wonderful trait to have, and one day you'll be able to share that with someone else.
I haven't learned anything because no one has convincingly stated anything to me! Why should I admit to changing my mind? Wouldn't that be contradicting my opinion, if there is no convincing point to make that change? When someone gives me a good argument as to why I'm wrong, I will say, "gee, ok, I see your point," and I'll make modifications to my beliefs. There have been a few times where I've agreed with a point here and there (check the thread, I'm sure you'll find it). I've used evidence, life experience to state my case, and back up my arguments. I have modified my points, but the underlying opinion is still the same.
Sullen Jester
Corporate Executive
I think "the rest" do. I have yet to see "shut up already, dont you get it?", but you might. We all interpret things differently.
You cannot tell anyone how to "recover", they'd have to do it themselves. You can make them convince themselves that they are better, but that is not solving it. It's just hiding the problem. It has been known to work, but not always. Most of the time it doesn't. That's why people have recurring breakdowns - they let others "solve" thier problems. It cannot be done, unless the "supportive person" has felt EXACTLY what they have felt, the EXACT same situation has happened etc. etc. You cannot give one remedy for forty different scenarios.
As for speaking to people besides this lovely forums' inhabitants, no, I have not. The society I live in, this suburb - is fucked. Everyone is the same - lets do this and be popular, lets get mindfucked and take in this trend. Everyone is so concerned at making themselves above the rest. All my "friends" are nothing like me, and most of them don't really like me. Of all the people I know in person, ONE I can say is a good friend. He's nothing gone out of his way to hurt me, make me feel bad, like the others.
As I said to Kushantaiidan lastnight, my best friends are from the internet, and nearly all of them are from this forum (You can say I don't have many "good friends")
Support groups, though, deal with depression as though it has one cause, one effect, one or two solutions. I know that is not true - it's a generalisation, but I think (hope) my point is sent across. You cannot fix a finely tuned instrument with a hammer.
Cheers,
Sven
Belial
Rainbow Demon
*Falls to the floor, anime style, and groans.*
Ok, turn me over, I'm done. No offense but right now I feel like I'm speaking to a brick wall.
Sullen Jester
Corporate Executive
True, true, true.
Noone can decide what is RIGHT - it is undederminable (Ugh! Hard word).
Justice is not right - it's a new word for tainted revenge.
Just as in abortion, NOONE has the cheif postion of deciding things, whether it be whats right and wrong, who lives and dies, who gets to eat out of a garbage can tonight.
We SHOULD be able to determine what we can do, going in a POSITIVE direction for ALL OF US, not just OURSELVES.
MetalManCPA
Papa Opeth
Suicide?
Weakness? Courage?
My answer : both, one or the other, or none.
Courageous: in the purest sense, to have the ability to take your own life is in itself an act of courage. Or maybe you just have the guts.
Weakness: absolutely. Life basically sucks for everybody. The pressures mount as you get older (believe it or not). It's different types of pressure over the years. All kids, and especially teenagers, are presssured by school. There is so much pressure from so many angles: parents wanting you to succeed, some parents want you to succeed where they didn't, some parents want you to be "as good" as them, "better" colleges demand better grades, society says that better jobs and more money are to be made by those who succeed in college. DAMN. Get married, have a family - the pressures of supporting a family - money, bills. The fear of watching your kids grow up in a fucked up society - knowing that they are surrounded by shit, and you can do little to protect them from it.
None: when suicide is caused by depression, anxiety, etc. fueled by a chemical imbalance in the brain, that individual may really have little control over what their brain says to them. No matter how hard they try - going to a psychologist, going to a psychiatrist and having medications : these may still not be enough.
Suicide is a complex and disturbing issue - disturbing because the profession of treating mental illness has for the most part been around for a little over a century. Medications change weekly - pharmaceutical companies make new medications because older ones have more side effects. Side effects can feed depression which can trigger suicide. Very complex. Balancing a treatment plan can be next to impossible. Living in an environment where the people who surround you don't truely understand mental illness can drive you into isolation - thinking no one around you has a clue. Being a teenager in that period of your life where you're trying to find yourself - coupled with the pressures can trigger a depressive state. Living 40-50 years, having a decent life, then all of the sudden everything crumbles around you - maybe losing a job, or a divorce, or a death of a family member : all these can trigger a depressive and suicidal state.
Suicide has no real boundaries - except for those first several years of your life where you aren't developed enough to understand suicide and the "perceived" escape that suicide provides.
I could go on forever - but it's a very deep and real condition that is quite scary.
Weakness? Courage?
My answer : both, one or the other, or none.
Courageous: in the purest sense, to have the ability to take your own life is in itself an act of courage. Or maybe you just have the guts.
Weakness: absolutely. Life basically sucks for everybody. The pressures mount as you get older (believe it or not). It's different types of pressure over the years. All kids, and especially teenagers, are presssured by school. There is so much pressure from so many angles: parents wanting you to succeed, some parents want you to succeed where they didn't, some parents want you to be "as good" as them, "better" colleges demand better grades, society says that better jobs and more money are to be made by those who succeed in college. DAMN. Get married, have a family - the pressures of supporting a family - money, bills. The fear of watching your kids grow up in a fucked up society - knowing that they are surrounded by shit, and you can do little to protect them from it.
None: when suicide is caused by depression, anxiety, etc. fueled by a chemical imbalance in the brain, that individual may really have little control over what their brain says to them. No matter how hard they try - going to a psychologist, going to a psychiatrist and having medications : these may still not be enough.
Suicide is a complex and disturbing issue - disturbing because the profession of treating mental illness has for the most part been around for a little over a century. Medications change weekly - pharmaceutical companies make new medications because older ones have more side effects. Side effects can feed depression which can trigger suicide. Very complex. Balancing a treatment plan can be next to impossible. Living in an environment where the people who surround you don't truely understand mental illness can drive you into isolation - thinking no one around you has a clue. Being a teenager in that period of your life where you're trying to find yourself - coupled with the pressures can trigger a depressive state. Living 40-50 years, having a decent life, then all of the sudden everything crumbles around you - maybe losing a job, or a divorce, or a death of a family member : all these can trigger a depressive and suicidal state.
Suicide has no real boundaries - except for those first several years of your life where you aren't developed enough to understand suicide and the "perceived" escape that suicide provides.
I could go on forever - but it's a very deep and real condition that is quite scary.
The post was mainly directed to Belial, fyi.
And you don't have to interpret something as blatant as that. I suggest you read sling's post I think on the page before this one.
I don't have to tell anyone, they are only suggestions. Sometimes people need ASSISTANCE, or a helping hand, to get them on their feet. And you're right: they have to do it themselves. But there is nothing wrong with suggesting solutions - it's your choice to try them or not.
And you have no personal life other than here? Well, if you see absolutely nothing wrong with that, neither will I.
Support groups are not the answer to EVERYONE'S problem, but they are the solution to SOME people's problems. It's nice to get together with people that have gone through the same thing as you for support and comfort. Usually in these groups there are people who have gone through so much more worse things than you, and have succeeded in abolishing their pain, and are acting as mentors on these forums.
If you see someone who is crying out in pain, aren't you going to try and help them in some way? You'd be a heartless son of a if you just ignored them and said "it's his problem, let him deal with it on his own."
And this is the problem with people who are refusing help. They believe that:
Quoted by Sullen Jester:
1. You cannot give one remedy for forty different scenarios.
2. Support groups, though, deal with depression as though it has one cause, one effect, one or two solutions.
3. You cannot fix a finely tuned instrument with a hammer.
With excuses like these, it's no wonder they don't seek help.
And you don't have to interpret something as blatant as that. I suggest you read sling's post I think on the page before this one.
I don't have to tell anyone, they are only suggestions. Sometimes people need ASSISTANCE, or a helping hand, to get them on their feet. And you're right: they have to do it themselves. But there is nothing wrong with suggesting solutions - it's your choice to try them or not.
And you have no personal life other than here? Well, if you see absolutely nothing wrong with that, neither will I.
Support groups are not the answer to EVERYONE'S problem, but they are the solution to SOME people's problems. It's nice to get together with people that have gone through the same thing as you for support and comfort. Usually in these groups there are people who have gone through so much more worse things than you, and have succeeded in abolishing their pain, and are acting as mentors on these forums.
If you see someone who is crying out in pain, aren't you going to try and help them in some way? You'd be a heartless son of a if you just ignored them and said "it's his problem, let him deal with it on his own."
And this is the problem with people who are refusing help. They believe that:
Quoted by Sullen Jester:
1. You cannot give one remedy for forty different scenarios.
2. Support groups, though, deal with depression as though it has one cause, one effect, one or two solutions.
3. You cannot fix a finely tuned instrument with a hammer.
With excuses like these, it's no wonder they don't seek help.
Sullen Jester
Corporate Executive
Theres also misanthropy, and fear of developing a dependance.
And I'm not saying that you cannot help anyone at all, but these people must save themselves (with or without assistance). Otherwise, they will develop a form of dependence, and will fall to pieces unless said saviour is there to help.
I forgot to add that part before.
And no, I don't really have a 'personal life' other than sitting here at my computer, playing games, playing guitar, reading, writing etc. etc. because theres nothing to do alone. I stated before, my best friends are on the internet, and live too far away to meet regularly (or at all).
I am often mocked, made fun of, by people around here, and I do not like to be around them. I am usually here in my house, avoiding my family.
I don't see why you should have to go out a certain amount of times in a given amount of time, or see so-so amount of people, to avoid being mocked.
Belial
Rainbow Demon
Some good links I suggest you look at, Jannet.
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html
http://www.save.org/question.shtml
There are some others I remember, but having trouble tracking down. I'll post 'em when I find 'em.
http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html
http://www.save.org/question.shtml
There are some others I remember, but having trouble tracking down. I'll post 'em when I find 'em.
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