SONATA ARCTICA - Stones Grow Her Name

[hoodaman]

It's always hard to please metal fans. That balancing act of adding in new elements of the core sound so as to keep things fresh without alienating the core fan base. Sonata Arctica post "Reckoning Night" didn't even try to balance it. They just straight fell off the wire and have been flailing around on the way to the ground.

 

[Creeps]

I listened to the clips on Amazon and nothing grabbed me at all. I haven't been picking their stuff up for a while.

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Listened to the whole album when it went streaming and was very sad. SA used to inspire me. I can't say anything about this album was inspiring. It's not BAD music, but it didn't grab me.

 

[AngraRULES]

Oh, expand your horizons people!

Don't be ridiculous. There's a difference between being "open" to new elements in music and being repulsed by awful music. The average user of this forum is more open than the majority of people out there. If you like the album, that's fine. Some long-time fans of the band (myself included) don't like it because it's arguably their worst written songs. And that's all there is to it.

The reason some people don't like it: it doesn't sound exactly like everything else they've done - Sonata Arctica are branching out, and some fans just want them to stay in the place they were before. But if the did, people would say "boring - nothing new here."

Sorry, but I disagree with that as well. Unia was different than anything else they had ever done and it was a solid disc (for the most part). They started branching out like you're saying with Unia. Their songwriting went downhill from there. Actually, it fell off a cliff.

 

[Creeps]

Oh, expand your horizons people! From the viewpoint of a prog fan who likes some power metal now and then: this might just be their best album to date. The reason some people don't like it: it doesn't sound exactly like everything else they've done - Sonata Arctica are branching out, and some fans just want them to stay in the place they were before. But if the did, people would say "boring - nothing new here."

One could argue the reason they became fans of a band is because of a sound they delivered. I don't know about anyone else, but if I bought a Manowar or Slayer album and got something that sounded like Pink Cream 69 I'd be pissed. Same goes in reverse, if PC69 sounded like Slayer I'd be let down.

Bands *can* stay true to their original sound while at the same time progressing/expanding/experimenting/etc.. without alienating the fans that got them where they are now and picking up new ones along the way. Black Tide - I'm looking at you.

I use Slayer as an example because (aside from solos) the music is always a little different and no album sounds like a clone of their previous. The continue to keep their old school fan base and grow from a younger audience as well... look around at a Slayer show when you go and see how big the age difference is in the t-shirts.

 

[Nidstang]

Days of Gray at least kept me interested for the most part.

Most of this album is very....underwhelming.

 

[Sir Exar Kun]

Sorry, but I disagree with that as well. Unia was different than anything else they had ever done and it was a solid disc (for the most part).

What is it you like about Unia that you don't like on Stones? I find the songwriting to be fairly similar, with the notable difference that on Stones I can actually hear hooks that stick with me, whereas with Unia I couldn't hum a single song off that album if I tried.....

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Yeah, I didn't like Unia myself. Again, not BAD music, but nothing really grabbed me.

 

[AngraRULES]

What is it you like about Unia that you don't like on Stones? I find the songwriting to be fairly similar, with the notable difference that on Stones I can actually hear hooks that stick with me, whereas with Unia I couldn't hum a single song off that album if I tried.....

The songs.

You can't hum Paid in Full? It's one of the catchiest SA songs!

 

[Sir Exar Kun]

Originally Posted by Sir Exar Kun View Post
What is it you like about Unia that you don't like on Stones? I find the songwriting to be fairly similar, with the notable difference that on Stones I can actually hear hooks that stick with me, whereas with Unia I couldn't hum a single song off that album if I tried.....
The songs.

You can't hum Paid in Full? It's one of the catchiest SA songs!

Well, I figured it wasn't the artwork!!! LOL! That SO didn't answer the question though.....

Yeah, "Paid in Full" is the highlight off that album, but I still don't find it to be one of their best by a wide margin.

To me, SA started to go off the ledge with Unia, when the entire song structure seemed to switch into centering purely and exclusively around the vocals. Add to that, with Unia and Grays, the vocal lines are rather odd and very convoluted, and it makes for a difficult listen. It's one thing to listen to vocals like this, when there is a ton of musical stuff going on in the background. Sadly, I think the music itself has taken a further and further backseat to Tony's vocal showcase (including on the new album).

The difference for me on Stones versus the other two is that, while the vocal elements are just as complicated as before, he takes a bit of a timeout in each song to come back to something resembling a conventional chorus. It's cliched and basic, but for me it's the saving grace with this sort of material. If you're going to "minimize" the music, then the vocals need to make up for it, and this is the first album of the three that has done that.....

I've tried thinking up analogous bands that use the complex vocal lines like SA, and the best comparisons I can come up with are maybe Redemption, or go into a more techhy outfit like Watchtower or Linear Sphere. It's like the singer is trying to sing way too many words for the line, but somehow still makes it work. Ray does an outstanding job of this in Redemption, and in its context it works incredibly well, with the complex musical background. When you take that same delivery and place it over very basic rhythms (ala modern Sonata), it can be much more distracting, and harder to absorb.

(I'm wondering at this point if any of this makes sense to anyone outside my own head..... I know what I'm trying to say, but damn..... This is ROUGH.)

 

[Stingray11214]

Just to throw this out there: Do you think that if Jani was still in the band that it would have made a difference?

 

[AngraRULES]

Just to throw this out there: Do you think that if Jani was still in the band that it would have made a difference?

Honestly? No.

I think I listened to Cain's Offering once or twice. Boring. However, Sonata's music prior to his departure is indeed much better than the music now. I'm not really sure if he was to blame, but I don't think so.

 

[jem777az]

I like the new album A LOT. I was extremely skeptical when I bought this off iTunes because I thought that both Unia and The Days Of Gray sucked major ass. But I was immediately hooked by the first song, very catchy, melodic and enjoyable. I find the rest of the album to be the same. Now let's be clear, I was not expecting a return to the old power metal days, that's never going to happen. However as a whole the new album is very diverse but still retains some of the old school elements.

As far as Jani leaving; I don't think it would have made a difference either way. This is Tony's band and it's clearly the direction he has wanted to go for quite some time now.

 

[Metal_Camden]

Honestly? yes

Fix'd!

Tony and the keyboardist are, from my knowledge, the main composers of the record. When they used to bring Jani (i am a huge fan is his work) in to bring the guitar parts to life his take on the writing was different than elias'. Also Tony was writing a bit differently back then too.

Lets also just remember that the turn in SA's music was directly after he left for whatever reason... I think Unia was the record that made the band start splitting in the ways of writing, hence a departure for one reason or another.

I think the Cain's Offering material was more of a reflection on Jani's emotional side of life (which yes was sorta bland) but not really Jani being given pre-written chords to turn into a song. I talked to Tony when we opened for them and there was an incredible sense of bitterness when I asked how the new guitarist was. "He's a lot better than Jani" with an incredibly angry finnish face.

 

[OrbWeaver]

I've been underwhelmed by this album, too.

However, I can get behind the message in "I Have A Right" 100%.

 

[nomisofsiman]

I guess I'm in the extreme minority that LOVES Days of Grays. I thought that had a bit of what was explored on Unia but harkened a bit back to their roots (but not as good). I'm really hesitant though to give this album a chance as the teaser they had for this I hated.

 

[dtguitarfan]

Don't be ridiculous. There's a difference between being "open" to new elements in music and being repulsed by awful music.

Absolutely. And this is not awful music - it's just more progressive and you weren't prepared for them to deliver music like this. Listen - I HATED Unia when it first came out. And then I saw them live, and when they performed songs from that album, I changed my tune - went back and listened to the album again and now it's one of my favorites. I HATED Days of Grays when it first came out. But one of my best friends said it was their best cd recently. When I saw the recent SA DVD, I loved the songs off of Days of Grays on it. Still didn't listen to it again. Now when this album came out, I didn't know what to expect...and I LOVED it! It made me want to go back and listen to Days of Grays again, which I did, and this time... I LOVED IT! Lesson learned: expectations kill music appreciation.

 

[Nightmare1z]

I think the problem for most with the new SA material (new being Unia to now) is that it requires the listener to invest themselves in the albums. Just listening to it on a streaming site once, or casually listening to it looking for something to instantly grab you, causes it to fail with lots of listeners.

Days of Grey is the perfect example. When I first listened to it, I couldn't have told you about anything except Flag in the Ground in terms of melodies, hooks, etc. But I just kept listening and listening to it because my buddy was saying how good an album it was.

After really giving it time to digest, I grew to absolutely LOVE the album.

Songwriting wise too - people saying that it's fallen off the map - I also disagree. I mean take a song like "Juliet" for instant - to me that is some of Tony's best writing in terms of complexity, telling a story through the music and lyrics and the tone of the song, etc. Especially if you listened to the bonus disc with that album and heard the 'orchestra' version of that song - there's a lot going on there musically that's not just power chords like back in their early days.

So to each his own - their music now is not going to fit everyone and I know lots of people that don't want or feel they have to spend a lot of time 'investing' in an album as that's not what they listen to music for.

But I've found that with SA - if I give it a fair shake and time to digest, the new stuff is light years ahead of the old stuff in terms of maturity of writing

But the comments on them needing to return to the Silence days are just beating a dead horse - that SA is done

 

[Oblivion Ocean]

I think the problem for most with the new SA material (new being Unia to now) is that it requires the listener to invest themselves in the albums. Just listening to it on a streaming site once, or casually listening to it looking for something to instantly grab you, causes it to fail with lots of listeners.

Days of Grey is the perfect example. When I first listened to it, I couldn't have told you about anything except Flag in the Ground in terms of melodies, hooks, etc. But I just kept listening and listening to it because my buddy was saying how good an album it was.

After really giving it time to digest, I grew to absolutely LOVE the album.

Songwriting wise too - people saying that it's fallen off the map - I also disagree. I mean take a song like "Juliet" for instant - to me that is some of Tony's best writing in terms of complexity, telling a story through the music and lyrics and the tone of the song, etc. Especially if you listened to the bonus disc with that album and heard the 'orchestra' version of that song - there's a lot going on there musically that's not just power chords like back in their early days.

So to each his own - their music now is not going to fit everyone and I know lots of people that don't want or feel they have to spend a lot of time 'investing' in an album as that's not what they listen to music for.

But I've found that with SA - if I give it a fair shake and time to digest, the new stuff is light years ahead of the old stuff in terms of maturity of writing

But the comments on them needing to return to the Silence days are just beating a dead horse - that SA is done

Well said!

I was going to post something similar. You are right from Unia forward their music has become more subtle and sophisticated and less reliant on that huge anthemic chorus. The hooks and melodies are still certainly there, they are just being expressed in more complex ways. The result as you said are albums/songs that are less immediate upon first listen, but most of the time they are just as satisfying if you are willing to put in the time or effort.

I won't begrudge anyone an initial indifference to the newer stuff. I get it, it does not grab me as quickly as say Winterheart's Guild (which just captured me from note one). However a song like Caleb from Unia is a great example of something that I found a bit plodding at first, but is now easily in my top 5 Sonata songs of all time. Ultimately I also don't begrudge anyone that does not like the shifts in style and the experimentation, but I would urge people that gave the new one a quick listen to invest some time in it. That does not guarantee people will come around on it, but I think it would increase the odds of enjoying their newer style.

 

[dtguitarfan]

I think the problem for most with the new SA material (new being Unia to now) is that it requires the listener to invest themselves in the albums. Just listening to it on a streaming site once, or casually listening to it looking for something to instantly grab you, causes it to fail with lots of listeners.

Days of Grey is the perfect example. When I first listened to it, I couldn't have told you about anything except Flag in the Ground in terms of melodies, hooks, etc. But I just kept listening and listening to it because my buddy was saying how good an album it was.

After really giving it time to digest, I grew to absolutely LOVE the album.

Songwriting wise too - people saying that it's fallen off the map - I also disagree. I mean take a song like "Juliet" for instant - to me that is some of Tony's best writing in terms of complexity, telling a story through the music and lyrics and the tone of the song, etc. Especially if you listened to the bonus disc with that album and heard the 'orchestra' version of that song - there's a lot going on there musically that's not just power chords like back in their early days.

So to each his own - their music now is not going to fit everyone and I know lots of people that don't want or feel they have to spend a lot of time 'investing' in an album as that's not what they listen to music for.

But I've found that with SA - if I give it a fair shake and time to digest, the new stuff is light years ahead of the old stuff in terms of maturity of writing

But the comments on them needing to return to the Silence days are just beating a dead horse - that SA is done

Wow. This is what I was trying to get at, but you said it so much more eloquently.