Suggestion on drum sounds?

[Salvation 13]

Hi,

Me and our drummer started working on our drum sound for our next demo cd, and this is what we came up with: http://www.soundclick.com/util/downloadSong.cfm?ID=3732559&key=9358EC24-0

We only had 8 tracks available, so we tracked them like this:
1: e602 on the kick, right on the air hole. I used PSP Vintage Warmer and Drumagog with Andy's sample mixed in 40%. HP at 60Hz.
2: 57 on the snare, below the drum. PSP VW, Waves RVerb 10% wet & HP at 400Hz
3&4: MD421 on the toms, 4 toms/2 mics. Waves C1 gate, L2 and RVerb 10 % wet.
5: 57 on the hh, HP at 500Hz.
6&7: Rode NT1A's as oh. HP at 700 Hz, Rverb 40% wet.
8: Some kick mic from Nady on the floor tom. Waves C1 gate.

Any suggestions how to make it better? Anything we have made terribly wrong? We play mostly proggressive trash/grind.

 

[KeithRT99]

the snare sounds kinda weak, the kick is really big sounding, and it makes the rest of the kit sound small, maybe take it down a few dB.

 

[Mikey Bolton]

I would put the 57 on the top of the snare ;-)

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Sounds ok but not great yet. With some tweaking you could get a quite good sound I think.
Some things I did not like:
1. The snare sounds weak and strange. If you really placed the mic at the bottom that is no surprise. Most people use a top and bottom mic for snare and mix them to taste, but the top mic is the essential one, because it's the one that captures the attack of the stick and the punch. Using a bottom mic only will never sound good at least if you want a normal snare sound.
2. The Hihat sounds very muddy and bassy and has no brilliance. Either it sounds bad in nature or you mixed it strange....try cutting back on low mids/mids an boosting the highs a little....
3. The overheads/cymbals sound to far away (maybe from the reverb) and could use a bost arround 8khz or a bass/mid cut as they sound too dark as well.

Maybe that helps improving your drumsound. Good luck!

 

[GuitarMaestro]

Just wanted to add: The comment about the darkness of the overheads might be wrong as the compression could have caused a loss here.

 

[Salvation 13]

Thanks for your suggestions. The reason we put the mic under the snare was because we couldn't find a place where we could put the stand so it wouldn't be on the way of our drummer. Oh well, propably have to try to set up the kit differently.

So, a condenser on the hh would help? The fact that the cymbals and hihat are all torn and beaten doesn't help either. It's just hard to speak our drummer into buying 800€ worth of cymbals.

The hh and oh have a hipass at 500 and 700 Hz already.

 

[GuitarMaestro]

The reason we put the mic under the snare was because we couldn't find a place where we could put the stand so it wouldn't be on the way of our drummer.

Do that....you HAVE to use a top mic for the snare. If you only have the botom mic it's like recording a guitar cab with the mic behind the cab....hehe

So, a condenser on the hh would help? The fact that the cymbals and hihat are all torn and beaten doesn't help either. It's just hard to speak our drummer into buying 800€ worth of cymbals.

Hmm....I doubt it. A SM57 can be used for hihat very well. As long as it does sound bad with a SM57 it wont sound good with another mic.

 

[Salvation 13]

Ok, we moved the overheads a little, ditched the 57 from the hihat (the hh goes only through the overheads now) and put the 57 over the snare. Any ideas how to minimize bleed from the snare to the tom mics and overheads? (Besides the 1:3 distance rule).

Here's a new mix of the drums, any better?

http://www.soundclick.com/util/downloadSong.cfm?ID=3767191&key=C0E5D4FC-C

I also reduced the amount of plugins, there's basically only a hipass at 500-700Hz and very little reverb on the snare and cymbals.

 

[ReliXKeepeR]

Well, now the kick sounds good. You have to work a little bit on the snare. And some of your cyms sound really bad.

 

[Pman]

Hmm....I doubt it. A SM57 can be used for hihat very well. As long as it does sound bad with a SM57 it wont sound good with another mic.

remember what oz nimbius (however u spell it ) said in his recording metal drums guide
do not use a mic for the hihats, they are loud enough in the mix already
it does depend on the hihats, the ones in the recording sound relatively cheap
usually when i increase the high end of the over heads in the mix, the hi hats are the loudest thing, and dont forget about hi hat spillage into other mics

 

[Salvation 13]

Well, now the kick sounds good. You have to work a little bit on the snare. And some of your cyms sound really bad.

You should see what the cymbals look like. uke:
I'd say when our drummer has the guts to blow 1000€ on new cymbals and skins
the sound will improve a lot.

What didn't you like on the snare? It's really hard to find a place for the 57 so that it won't be on the way. It's now at an 25 degree angle facing the center of the snare. I'll have to try to find a way to get it on a better angle.

 

[Sinister Mephisto]

What's so hard about placing the snare mic? Your drummer should be hitting the exact middle of the drum pretty much every time. Does he have an X to aim for or anything?

 

[Salvation 13]

What's so hard about placing the snare mic? Your drummer should be hitting the exact middle of the drum pretty much every time. Does he have an X to aim for or anything?

It's not that, if I raise the mic to a higher degree it will be in front of the toms.

 

[Torniojaws]

It's not that, if I raise the mic to a higher degree it will be in front of the toms.

Can't you put it to the left (looking from the drummer's bench) of the first tom with the mic & stand stretched out in a direct line, ie. instead of

              /
-------------/
            /

put it like this:

              ______
---------------/

 

[Salvation 13]

Sorry about the finnish guys.

Siis, selitäpäs nyt uusiksi, jää vähän epäselväksi mitä ajat takaa.

Mikki on nyt rumpalista päin katsoen virvelin vasemmalla puolella. Jos sitä nostaa enemmän ylöspäin niin että sen saisi osoittamaan virvelin keskelle paremmassa kulmassa (nyt se on lähempänä vaakatasoa kuin pystysuoraa) niin se nousee 1. tomin eteen jolloin tomifillien aikana rumpali paukuttaa enemmän viisseiskaa kuin rumpuja.

Eli näin:
- - - - - O O O O tomit
----------\ ____ kulma on paljon loivempi nyt kuin kuvassa.

 

[GuitarMaestro]

remember what oz nimbius (however u spell it ) said in his recording metal drums guide do not use a mic for the hihats, they are loud enough in the mix already

That is wrong/misleading advice in my opinion! It is true that you can live without a hihat mic in some cases (jazz, blues and certain other style drums where the OH's play a big part).
But:
1. Why reduce the mixing options you have later?
2. I have yet to see a pro hard rock/metal live concert or studio session mic setup that has no hihat mic

It might work for OzNimbus(he knows his stuff....no doubt about it), but it is definately not the standard and using a mic on the hihat should always be done as long as you have enough mics and no other particular reason to NOT use one. After all it has no disadvantage....

 

[Salvation 13]

Ok, finally we came up with something new. How do you like the drums now?
Or, more exactly, what you would do to make them sound better?

We didn't mic the cymbals or hh for now, they're so beaten up that we didn't even try to get a good sound out of them. The clip has only bd, snare and the toms. (The toms are out of tune and have very old heads, have to work on that later).

Here's the clip:

http://download.yousendit.com/62F0A6581A00E056

Here's one with a (maybe) better snare sound.

http://download.yousendit.com/C5074A7C4637033C

 

[Torniojaws]

Sorry about the finnish guys.

Siis, selitäpäs nyt uusiksi, jää vähän epäselväksi mitä ajat takaa.

                 ____     _____
             \\ /    \   /     \
   ___|____   \\\____/   \_____/
  /________\ --\\
  \________/    \\_________
      |         /\\        \
      |         \__________/
      |         |          |

Tuosta haikan ja ensimmäisen tomin välistä, niin että mikki on tomin päälypuolen alta suoraan virveliä kohti, niin että vaikka missä kulmassa lyö tomia, osuu rumpukapula tomin reunaan, eikä mikkiin.

 

[Salvation 13]

Kiitos vaivannäöstä. Nyt ei tarvi enää kuin saada rumpali suostumaan siirtämään virveliään vasemmalle.

 

[Pman]

That is wrong/misleading advice in my opinion! It is true that you can live without a hihat mic in some cases (jazz, blues and certain other style drums where the OH's play a big part).
But:
1. Why reduce the mixing options you have later?
2. I have yet to see a pro hard rock/metal live concert or studio session mic setup that has no hihat mic

It might work for OzNimbus(he knows his stuff....no doubt about it), but it is definately not the standard and using a mic on the hihat should always be done as long as you have enough mics and no other particular reason to NOT use one. After all it has no disadvantage....

ya i guess so
i have never NEEDED a hi hat mic when recording tho
i tried using one a couple times, it didnt turn out so good, i found the best option was just to leave it out
(this was before i read oznimbus's drum guide anyway)