Summing mixers...

Tesseract

Tesseract

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Dec 2, 2003
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Yow peeps!

Just wondered if anyone here has a summing mixer? I'm looking to get one as i've got a few mixes on at the moment (Tesseract EP & mixing a bands album)- and that extra little touch would be quite nice! I can't really take full advantage of it with out some really nice AD/DA converters but i should be able to improve it slightly with the 8 analogue outs of my RME fireface 800.

I'm looking at the 16:2 summing mixers. Does anyone know if I can make use of my ADAT out of the RME so i can use 16 channels instead of 8? 8 analogue then 8 ADAT? I know using cheap equipment with it is a bad idea but im just wondereing if theres something out there which could give me the extra 8 channels!

I'm looking at the SPL Mixdream XP and the Dangerous bus LT. Neither have a headphone out which sucks but they're more in the price range. Possibly the Audient Sumo aswell? With the Mixdream - if i like it i can buy the high end model in the future and link them together.

Any experiences with these particular models (or any others for that matter) for heavy music?
 
I'm using an old creamware A16 adat converter along with fireface 800. it has 16 channels. so 8 analog(actualy 10 analog , there a headphone output which you can use extra) + 16 adat = 26 channels.
they all run in to mackie 32/8 and summed there. WORLDS BETTER then daw summing. didnt tryed SPL and Dangerous stuff yet.
 
I personally think you'd be better off with an outboard comp to glue the master bus together. The summing mixers don't really do all that much to the sound. It's more of a placebo effect if anything. An outboard EQ or compressor would actually impart some nice analogue harmonics/dynamic movement.
 
Hmmm the Creamware seems cool. I think i'll make do with 8 channels to start with...then eventually buy something like that so I can make use of 16 chans on the summing mixer. I was looking at Behringer ADA8000 and presonus Digi something FS. Not point though - i may aswell save the money and wait for a better AD/DA.

I'm heading more towards the SPL mixdream XP at the moment...simply because i can add another Mixdream to it later if I like its sound. Sucks it doesn't have a headphone out though!

So this would all work in theory?
8xRME Analogue outs > D Sub > Summing Mixer

Then eventually when i get some kind of converter I can go:

8xRME analogue outs > D sub > Summing mixer
RME ADAT out > Converter > Converters analoue outs > Summing mixer
(or if the converter sounds good and has enough channels do it all via that)

An outboard compressor is something i would add to later on. I have an Avalon 737sp which has a lush EQ and Comp on it...i don't think the Mixdream XP does inserts though? So i'd have to wait for its big brother Mixdream for using outboard (unless I put it in the chain before the summing mixer).
 
The summing mixers don't really do all that much to the sound. It's more of a placebo effect if anything.
Click to expand...
no way.:Smug:
the mix will sound a whole way deeper and retain detail. that was direct A/B comparison.:)
 
Yeah i mean obviously its what you do with it which is the important thing. I can imagine its only a subtle difference...but the subtle things can make a big difference in the end. I've on some forums that it just makes you approach mixing slightly differerntly than ITB mixing.

Whats really been annoying me recently is i start off with a great drum sound...add the guitars bass...sounds cool or whatever but you can just hear the overall level going down. This isn't all down to summing i know...its how you mix it aswell but its a contributor. Since Tesseract uses alot of layers/track i think it could be useful!

Plus I want to start building my studio up as i'll be moving to my friends studio to join forces soon. This would be a good way to start integrating analogue equipment into my DAW and would work if I end up upgrading to Pro Tools aswell in the future.
 
i dunno...maybe it's just me, but i think the whole "summing mixer" thing is more or less a sham that's being forced upon unsuspecting engineers by gear manufacturer's

that's not to say that it might not add a slight improvement to the sound, but i've read some reviews here and there on some of these, and they make it seem as though you'll have some sort of complete night and day difference by running your tracks through their $1,000+ magic box.

call me skeptical.
 
ahtuks said:
no way.:Smug:
the mix will sound a whole way deeper and retain detail. that was direct A/B comparison.:)
Click to expand...


ummmmmmm no.

Is there SUBTLE differences? Ok maybe, but it's never anything you could pick 100% of the time in a practicle double blind test. I had the pleasure of trying out 8 different summing boxes a while back.

I ended up getting a Mixdream a couple of years ago, and while I really don't find that the summing does anthing, the thing I do like is the inserts on both the 16 channels and mix buss. Made it alot simpler to uses outboard gear without worrying about Digi's Delay Compensation.
 
What about stereo intensity? I know in PT it's -2.5 dB and that is very in your face. If you run your audio through a console it could be -3 or even -6 dB. Many people agree that it allows a more spacious mix.
 
I thought PT was -4.5db? EDIT: Just checked and it is 2.5dB - don't know where I pulled that 4.5 bullshine from

and also thats more of a level based thing (that said -3 works pretty nice for me :))

and my views on summing mixer - its not going to affect the mix enough to justify the money.
 
If you send out every track at 100% to the mixer and sum it up there, you will have some increased resolution. When you master that mix back to a digital recorder, you will loose that resolution. Maybe you can gain some quality if you use outboard limiters and stuff, but in the end 16 bits, analog brought down 18 db will become around 10 bits in the total mix, just as they would ITB.

BTW, if you don't care about analog eq or other stuff, summing mixers are very easily to build. The hardest thing to find are good matched stereo faders.
 
There is a Chandler rack mixer in the A room for the past 3 years. It sounds absolutely awesome, completely fat low end, aggressive mids and very smooth top. VERY VERY colored and not at all subtle. MUCH different than ITB. Its all pref what you like.

Heres my take on summing mixers. I dont look to any summing mixer for more depth and width as much as i do for an overall color. Sure the stereo field can be different from mixer to ITB but what you prefer is always up to you. People have gotten wayyyy to into the argument of depth, seperation and width and its so subjective. There is tons of guys making AMAZING mixes on ITB. You need to spend time with summers you are interested in and maybe a few you havent heard of, then make a decision on which you want.

Personally, i cant hear any difference at all with ultraclean summers like the mixdream or dangerous. I find them to be a complete waste of money. The summing ITB has gotten just as good. I cant speak for andy himself but i remember him saying he got rid of his dangerous mixbus because once HD came out it just wasnt making any difference any more.

The big colored ones like the chandler, neve, shadowhills and phoenix nicerizer are gonna give you a very drastic change in the sound of your mix bus. I very much prefer that type of sound and think the investment is far more worth it.

See what you dig and go for it!
 
I've done some summing shootouts on a few consoles and mixers. I really like the manley tube summing mixer when hit hard, although it's a bit pricey. it has tubes in the 2bus, which sound great when hit hard. I was also very impressed with the sound of cubase's internal summing engine.
 
If you're looking for character, go for the Neve. Expensive, yes, but it gives character. Without character there's not really a difference. There was a blind test in a Swedish music magazine a while ago, and about half thought that one was better than the other. That had nothing to do with the summing mixer though.
 
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