Sun Caged original?

[SanderThomas]

So you're actually saying that DT and SC sound the same, since the Sedation intro sounds like a LTE song :Smug:

As a bassist I might have another approach of listening to music than you, since you're a guitar player. Especially the groove and rythmic "undertow" created by bass player and drummer, is soo different (in fact Myung doesn't have any groove in his playing at all).

And I read in the biography of SC that you are influenced by LTE so: there is the similarity.

Even when influence would mean exact the same thing as similarity, there's still a possibility of similarities being coincidential.

 

[cagedvoice]

Thanx for the kind words rbloemink

Well... I've got a *slightly* different opinion than redelijk

Every member of sun caged has different influences and some influences we share. Of course we are influenced by Dream Theater..., and Psychotic Waltz..., and Fates Warning..., and so on and so on.
Funny thing is that different people hear different things.
A lot of reviews say that my voice sounds like James LaBrie, which is a very nice compliment, but in my opinion not true. Some people say I don't sound like James at all, which I think is true. So opinions differ, hence there is no real truth.

I think the comparison with LTE and sedation is obvious, so are a lot of other passages. Maybe it's because I wasn't a member at the time that song was written, I don't know... But what I know is that the basis of a few songs on the album are written by me and Joost and I can assure you there is NO LTE or Dream Theater influence in them, the overall feeling is a lot darker. My influences go more towards Psychotic Waltz and Fates Warning...

I think that with every new song and following album the sound will grow more and more. Even on the CD you can hear a lot of differences in the songs already. For instance songs like home and Hollow are very different from Sedation.

I'm sure that in the future some band will be compared to sun caged...

 

[rbloemink]

So you're actually saying that DT and SC sound the same, since the Sedation intro sounds like a LTE song :Smug:

As a bassist I might have another approach of listening to music than you, since you're a guitar player. Especially the groove and rythmic "undertow" created by bass player and drummer, is soo different (in fact Myung doesn't have any groove in his playing at all).


Even when influence would mean exact the same thing as similarity, there's still a possibility of similarities being coincidential.

No, I'm saying that the intro of sedation is LTE and overall SC sounds often like Dream Theater, that's all. It is clear for me that Sc has it's own style, I can hear that, but that's not my point.

Ofcourse all particular instruments doesn't sound the same, but in several passages of the songs you can hear almost copy's of parts/feels of DT, Meshuggah.

 

[rbloemink]

Thanx for the kind words rbloemink

Well... I've got a *slightly* different opinion than redelijk

I think the comparison with LTE and sedation is obvious, so are a lot of other passages. Maybe it's because I wasn't a member at the time that song was written, I don't know... But what I know is that the basis of a few songs on the album are written by me and Joost and I can assure you there is NO LTE or Dream Theater influence in them, the overall feeling is a lot darker. My influences go more towards Psychotic Waltz and Fates Warning...

thank you for your reply. I think your opinion about your the cd SC is nice. You admit that the intro is copied, and that is what I wanted to achieve. But I'm also sharing your opinion about the other songs. You said that the overall feeling is a lot darker and this is a point I total agree. I also think that SC can be even better if you can continue your dark style that you already founded on your debute.

 

[Borkdude]

A lot of reviews say that my voice sounds like James LaBrie, which is a very nice compliment, but in my opinion not true. Some people say I don't sound like James at all, which I think is true. So opinions differ, hence there is no real truth.

Nice conclusion! Nietzsche says there is no truth either! I think the intro is not copy-pasted from a LTE midi file or smth either. But I think it is funny to recognize things of other bands - sometimes when I write some music with my own band I come up with something, and someone else says: hey, that is from this and that band. Sometimes I think people don't even realize they are copying because they have listened such a long time to such an amount of music, they don't know what riff is already exisiting or what riff is inspiration .

 

[cagedvoice]

thank you for your reply. I think your opinion about your the cd SC is nice. You admit that the intro is copied, and that is what I wanted to achieve. But I'm also sharing your opinion about the other songs. You said that the overall feeling is a lot darker and this is a point I total agree. I also think that SC can be even better if you can continue your dark style that you already founded on your debute.

Note: I know the intro is NOT copied, but sounds somewhat similar...
Just break it down note for note, I'm sure You have to admit its not the same.

 

[cagedvoice]

Nice conclusion! Nietzsche says there is no truth either! I think the intro is not copy-pasted from a LTE midi file or smth either. But I think it is funny to recognize things of other bands - sometimes when I write some music with my own band I come up with something, and someone else says: hey, that is from this and that band. Sometimes I think people don't even realize they are copying because they have listened such a long time to such an amount of music, they don't know what riff is already exisiting or what riff is inspiration .

...and Nietzsche is right! There is no truth, just perspective (or point of view).

 

[rbloemink]

Note: I know the intro is NOT copied, but sounds somewhat similar...
Just break it down note for note, I'm sure You have to admit its not the same.

Hopefully it is not copied note for note! That would be humiliating! It is just the feel of the intro that sounds copied to me.

 

[cagedvoice]

Hopefully it is not copied note for note! That would be humiliating! It is just the feel of the intro that sounds copied to me.

Do you know that Dream Theater was accused of the same thing? On "when day and dream unite" the guitar solo's where to much like yngwie.. and on "images and words" the riffing got compared to bands like pantera. I've heard a lot of Pink Floyd influences (to the point of copying) in "scenes of a memory....
I'm sure it wasn't ment to sound so much alike....

 

[Borkdude]

...and Nietzsche is right! There is no truth, just perspective (or point of view).

Lol - so what's Nietzsche says is true... right?

Point of View is a darn nice Fates Warning song btw. And I agree on "the point of view" point of view on the world... I was just thinking that when bycikling on the way to my work (where I am now).

Sorry for the offtopic reactions and all but at least it keeps this forum going, right? .

Ow, another thing. There was something with the rythm change and riff in DT's the Mirror and a song by SyX on their album V (title I can't remember). Also a Foo Fighters song (pretty recent, wasn't it called Times like these or smth) was accused of stealing the rythm pattern from DT's The Mirror.

 

[SanderThomas]

We're not denying similarity. On the contrary. But you were implying we're COPYING other bands.

My thoughts exactly

Does anyone have a (bass) transcription of both intro's?

 

[rbloemink]

We're not denying similarity. On the contrary. But you were implying we're COPYING other bands. That's something quite different, my man...
Since we put a lot of time (most of our time!) in writing our songs, it doesn't feel very nice when someone says we're copying other bands. Because we know we're not

Anyways... Let's leave it with this

Dennis

ok let's leave it by this, but I have to make 1 remark here. I didn't mention to make you feel uncomfortable. I didn't call you a total Dream Theater rip-off or something! It isn't bad to be influenced by other bands. My comments on your album are just a point of criticism, not kind of slatering. Maybe I expressed myself not too well, but (I've said this a few times) I like Sun Caged! I think that you can even become a big international band in the Progressive Metal, because your debut sounds very well. I'm curious what kind of progression you will make on the next album. Good luck!

René

 

[FLechdrop]

Nice conclusion! Nietzsche says there is no truth either! I think the intro is not copy-pasted from a LTE midi file or smth either. But I think it is funny to recognize things of other bands - sometimes when I write some music with my own band I come up with something, and someone else says: hey, that is from this and that band. Sometimes I think people don't even realize they are copying because they have listened such a long time to such an amount of music, they don't know what riff is already exisiting or what riff is inspiration .

I once wrote a part of Pull Me Under

 

[mcoenen]

thank you for your reply. I think your opinion about your the cd SC is nice. You admit that the intro is copied, and that is what I wanted to achieve. But I'm also sharing your opinion about the other songs. You said that the overall feeling is a lot darker and this is a point I total agree. I also think that SC can be even better if you can continue your dark style that you already founded on your debute.

I don't think Andre admits that the intro is copied since it is not !
Ofcourse we all have our INFLUENCES but we don't COPY that is a very different issue !

 

[rbloemink]

I don't think Andre admits that the intro is copied since it is not !
Ofcourse we all have our INFLUENCES but we don't COPY that is a very different issue !

Andre said the "comparison with LTE and sedation is obvious". That sounds almost as "it's a copy", since 'obvious' means that you can't get away from it. Don't you think?

The intro of Sedation influenced by LTE, but too obvious, ok that's means not a copy, I admit. But everbody who listened to both intro's (even my mother and she don't listen often to music) could hear the similarity between the guitarpart and the snaredrum of the same intro of LTE.
I think that you're all technical and creative enough to make a very good intro without refering to LTE.

 

[Borkdude]

I think that you're all technical and creative enough to make a very good intro without refering to LTE.

I have made a song about these kinds of situations where someone proposes to: "let's leave it at this" and the other persons keep blabbing.

It is called STFU and you can download it here:

http://wwwhome.cs.utwente.nl/~borkent/otherrecordings.html

It is the link most near the bottom and the message is somewhere in the song.

Enjoy!

 

[Hawk]

...and Nietzsche is right! There is no truth, just perspective (or point of view).

Really? How do you know that's true?

You are claiming a truth in the process of denying it. Sounds
like a BIG contradiction to me.

So opinions differ, hence there is no real truth.

The argument you are trying to make here is called a "Non sequitur".
See here: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#nonseq

This is:

"an argument where the conclusion is drawn from premises which aren't
logically connected with it".


From your observation that "opinions differ" does not naturally follow that there is no such thing as a "real"?? truth [I can not imagine what an unreal truth would be].

If I have a discussion with my brother about you being the singer of SC, that in itself is no reason to asume that I can not ever proof that you are indeed the singer of SC. This would mean that if there was a difference of opinion about WWII it would not have happend!??? According to your reasoning:

Opinions differ about say, the holocaust hence it never truely happend.
I know you probably never meant it this way. But that's the logical end of this methode.

 

[cagedvoice]

If you read carefully, you'll see that I was talking about opinions being mistaken for truths, not facts.

Words have been taken out of contex here, I was talking about opinions. If you take away the first part of my posting then the remaining words should say: "Opinions differ, hence there is no real truth in an opinion."

I can imagine what an unreal truth would be, but until we discover everything about the universe there is to know, no one can know the real truth.
But don't take my word for it, because it might not be the truth.

You compare my statement with the following: "Opinions differ about the holocaust hence it never truely happend.", which is no comparison.
There are evidences and facts that state the oposite. If you would make this statement a comparison to my earlier statement, then it should read: "Opinions differ about the holocaust hence any opinion not backed by evidence or fact is a potential untruth.

Let's leave it at that, I feel very uncomfortable with your example of WWII, although I know you didn't mean it that way.
Don't read to much into my words and let's be friends.

 

[cagedvoice]

Hmmmm... can't stop thinking about it anymore, you got me intriged...

Let's talk truths and untruths. I will use a different but also "heavy" example.

One person believes in God and the other doesn't. the first one claimes he knows for sure that God exists, because he sees it in everyday life and feels his presence, he also claimes to have his prayers answered a few times. The other says he has science to prove that all live started by the big bang, evolving from tiny organisms that... bla, bla, bla.

they then try to convince eachother of the "real truth", but for every "fact" the atheist has against God, the other finds an explanation to convince him God is behind everything.

In the end there are several different conclusions:
1. Person1 is right and God does exist and the atheist is stuck with a untruth which he thinks is the truth.
2. Person2 is right and God doesn't exist, so the believer is stuck with an untruth.
3. They are both correct and wrong. The truth is somewhere in the middle and maybe God isn't the God person1 thought that he would be and science isn't as cold and just plain facts as person2 thought it would be.

Point is that until solid proof and facts are complete every truth is a potential untruth. unfortunatly no one knows if all facts have been found, or if all proof is complete.

Let's take another example:
The world today is a totally different "thruth" then the world 200 years ago and there will be another "thruth" in the next 200 years.
One could say that we are always a few "untruths" from the truth.

I will stop blabbering now.

It seems you are helping me out with some new lyrics Hawk, thnx...

 

[SaTriaNi]

LOL