The Declining Music Industry

[Korlich]

Biggsy, the 70´s was the best decade for music period. Look at Pink Floyd´s dark side of the moon, that was mainstream. the 70´s was about experimenting something disco and punk ruined.

 

[Nothinggod]

We weren't talking about sales. We were talking about quality. And yes, that quality is adjudged by us, as it is us who are here on this board right now. If you refuted every topic that the person apparently wasn't in the position to make a judgement on an issue, you'd be virtually wiping out free speech. Everyone has a right to comment. If you see these thoughts and opinions as having no validity, fine, just don't comment on them. (1)

I think Hubster's said what I was intending in a much clearer way. The lack of originality and ideas is, in my own opinion, affecting the quality of music made for mainstream audiences and also a lot for the underground audience. (2)I also think the generational change is an interesting idea, and I feel, truly, that I do listen mainly to songs and artists that have been heavily involved in my childhood and adolescence. Maybe I'm being too picky with todays music? Maybe instead of pulling it to pieces, I should just listen and try to enjoy it for what it is.

On point 1, You don't see any irony there? You are basically saying that if my opinion differs to or challenges yours then I should refrain from expressing it. Sure I might have said that you are in no position to judge or comment the quality of composition. That doesn't mean that I am not aware that you will or even expect that I could stop you. Basically all I see you doing is trying to vindicate what you say, as worthless as it is in my opinion, by telling me to keep my opinion to myself. Though I am not going to resort to any kind of defensive rhetoric about how I am being prevented from expressing my opinion. That's almost a paradox, even. Then again my opinion on what constitutes an opinion in the true sense is probably different to yours.

Which brings me to point 2. What constitutes originality, and furthermore what does the target market of a piece of music have to do with anything if you aren't talking about sales?

 

[biggsy]

That's a big call Korlich. In the beginning disco and punk were experimental as well. It's just like a lot of other genres, they've run out of ideas and are resorting to cheap thrills.

 

[biggsy]

On point 1, You don't see any irony there? You are basically saying that if my opinion differs to or challenges yours then I should refrain from expressing it. Sure I might have said that you are in no position to judge or comment the quality of composition. That doesn't mean that I am not aware that you will or even expect that I could stop you. Basically all I see you doing is trying to vindicate what you say, as worthless as it is in my opinion, by telling me to keep my opinion to myself. Though I am not going to resort to any kind of defensive rhetoric about how I am being prevented from expressing my opinion. That's almost a paradox, even. Then again my opinion on what constitutes an opinion in the true sense is probably different to yours.

Which brings me to point 2. What constitutes originality, and furthermore what does the target market of a piece of music have to do with anything if you aren't talking about sales?

I'm not preventing you from voicing your opinion. I'm asking you, that if all your going to do is say how we're not in a position to judge this, that we're all pseudo intellectuals, as if you're better, adding nothing to the thread, then please don't comment.

If you want a definition of originality, then define it on Google. I am using the target market as a reference point to which kind of music I think is lacking quality the most. If I didn't use these my post would have been vague and unclear. Sales, again, has nothing to do with my opinion on quality of music, and that is what we are discussing here.

 

[Hubster]

If someone feels they have an intelligent opinion, right or wrong, then I say express it. Proactively contribute to discussion or fuck off and stop wasting everyone's time. That's all I'll say for now, I was actually enjoying the topic until someone chooses to walk in and post a counterproductive comment. This thread has been ruined which is a damn shame.

 

[biggsy]

Proactively contribute to discussion or fuck off and stop wasting everyone's time.

Absolutely.

However, the thread isn't ruined, as far as I'm concerned. Anybody with a decent contribution could rectify this and so far there's no shit flinging, just intelligent discussion.

 

[Hubster]

How do you feel about my "generational" theory? Do you think it could be a contributing influence re: lack of musical quality today? (note: I'm finding that music is not the only art being diluted/recycled/lacking originality/etc these days).

Any thoughts?

 

[Nothinggod]

Ahh but you are making several fatal assumptions here. Firstly that I am calling anyone anything. Secondly that I haven't contributed anything to this thread. Thirdly that you think I think what you are saying is anything but vague and unclear.

I don't think you really get what I say to be honest though. It is evident by the way you respond with the very kind of defensive rhetoric I was just pointing out.
By saying "I'm not preventing you....I'm asking you....then please don't comment" you are going well beyond my comment that [you] are in no position to judge. Don't worry though I am fully aware you aren't preventing me from doing anything as I stated in my previous post. I am however pointing out the irony of what you are saying. As for who is better than who, that is completely arbitrary and once again nothing more than a defensive ploy on your part to justify that you will continue to express your so called opinion despite your obvious lack of confidence in it.

As for googling a definition of originality, it's interesting that you convieniently reference the validity of your opinion when challenged about your musical opinion, but when asked to give an opinion based response about what originality is you default to an arbitrary reference that completely negates you taking any responsibility for your so called opinion at all.

Finally sales has EVERYTHING, I repeat everything to do with why you would even mention a target market for any given type of music. Which really is the whole crux of why in my opinion you are hardly in any position to comment.

 

[biggsy]

I think it's a very viable theory. As I said before, I know or certain that I have done and still am hanging onto music from the past because of it's significance to me. I think it could contribute to people feeling that there isn't much quality in the music of today especially in people who aren't avid music listeners. It could be that they completely disregard it immediately because it isn't what they see as familiar territory or they simply don't have the knowledge (for lack of a better word) to understand the music and it's complexities.

Another part of it could be our really busy lives these days. I'm sure a lot of people on this board have listened to music that they've not been interested in at first, but grown to love in the end. I think a lot of people don't have time to give music those extra listens, and this is what record companies are cashing in on. They have recognised how hectic lives are now, especially in cities, and are making music with cheap thrills and catchy beats to entertain immediately, but for a short period of time. And it's working. The only people I know who like music outside of the mainstream are people who have time for music, and have a passion for it, whereas most mainstream fans are the ones who don't indulge in music and just listen to it because it's on the radio.

Any thoughts?

 

[Nothinggod]

If someone feels they have an intelligent opinion, right or wrong, then I say express it. Proactively contribute to discussion or fuck off and stop wasting everyone's time. That's all I'll say for now, I was actually enjoying the topic until someone chooses to walk in and post a counterproductive comment. This thread has been ruined which is a damn shame.

As for you hubster, once again, ironic. What you mean is as long as that opinion doesn't challenge yours. Really I hate to say it, but it sucks to be as myopic as you.

 

[biggsy]

Ahh but you are making several fatal assumptions here. Firstly that I am calling anyone anything. Secondly that I haven't contributed anything to this thread. Thirdly that you think I think what you are saying is anything but vague and unclear.

I don't think you really get what I say to be honest though. It is evident by the way you respond with the very kind of defensive rhetoric I was just pointing out.
By saying "I'm not preventing you....I'm asking you....then please don't comment" you are going well beyond my comment that [you] are in no position to judge. Don't worry though I am fully aware you aren't preventing me from doing anything as I stated in my previous post. I am however pointing out the irony of what you are saying. As for who is better than who, that is completely arbitrary and once again nothing more than a defensive ploy on your part to justify that you will continue to express your so called opinion despite your obvious lack of confidence in it.

As for googling a definition of originality, it's interesting that you convieniently reference the validity of your opinion when challenged about your musical opinion, but when asked to give an opinion based response about what originality is you default to an arbitrary reference that completely negates you taking any responsibility for your so called opinion at all.

Finally sales has EVERYTHING, I repeat everything to do with why you would even mention a target market for any given type of music. Which really is the whole crux of why in my opinion you are hardly in any position to comment.

You did refer to people in this topic as pseudo intellectuals. I do see the irony inw hat I said and I didn't realise it while I typed it, though it is a good point to what you say.

Originality according to biggsy: something that has rarely, if ever been done before. For a band, it doesn't matter if it takes elements of their sound from someone else, as long as it has elements that are quite clearly their own.

I'll take the blame if someone finds a fault in there which I'm sure they will.

Please read what I said regarding the use of sales targets as a reference point, or address it more fully.

 

[Kir-ir-Bannog]

You have to really look for the quality stuff, whereas Led Zep and The Beatles were served on a platter to my parents and possibly osme of the older members here.

yeah but that is half the fun

 

[biggsy]

As for you hubster, once again, ironic. What you mean is as long as that opinion doesn't challenge yours. Really I hate to say it, but it sucks to be as myopic as you.

Not to jump to his defence because I'm sure he could do that, but he isn't saying that you can't express your opinion. He is simply saying do it in a way that doesn't detract from this topic. Don't accuse, blame, call names and the rest, state your opinion politely and argue politely and fully back up your arguments and everyone will be sitting pretty.

 

[Hubster]

(Will move post to further down as it's lengthy)

 

[Kir-ir-Bannog]

some of the djs that were big in late 90s are still playing quality stuff, eg. john digweed, sasha, nick warren, james lavelle... just go to an occasion where one of these guys is spinning and you will have a good time. i do, at least. then you've got good newer stuff like yahel and infected mushroom etc. i am not so pessimistic about dance music nowadays, really. i can't really listen to the stuff they were playing in clubs in the early 90s. compared to that late 90s was much better, and even though there hasnt been anything revolutionary since then, it also hasn't gotten significantly worse.

I can see what you're saying...however i went to a retro night the other week playing tracks from around '91 and i had an excellent time. Grooverider and Ellis Dee were there. Marvellous. I guess it was mostly a nostalgic thing, i will very rarely put something on from that era now, but then perhaps thats because all the dj sets i had were on bootleg audio tapes....

 

[derbeder]

it seems pretty clear from an earlier thread that nothinggod made (the one about whether opeth should endorse abercrombie and fitch etc.) that he is basically looking for an argument for argument's sake so he can call other people pseudo-intellectuals, myopic and what not.

 

[Hubster]

While not directly music-related, some thoughts nevertheless:

I can't recall where, but I remember from discussion with someone that people percieve themselves at the age they enjoyed most. For many of us, that's around 25 or so years of age (it differs for everyone of course).

Some people when they hit say, 30, 33 years old perhaps, might check out women or men around 25 years old because they still subconsciously percieve themselves to be in that age bracket.

I feel that perhaps to some extent, this could apply to tastes in music. How often have we heard (note, big generalisation) a baby boomer state they hate "new music" i.e. 80's and onwards, yet anything in the 60's and 70's is perfectly acceptable?

The skewing factor in this idea though, is that many of us here who are serious lovers of music enjoy music of different genres, ethnicities and periods.

Could this be a counterbalance to a "favourite age" theory? Or it is simply an excuse that we are infact still stuck at a certain musical age, and that that is our factor regarding a defiance of acceptance with the current music of today?

Another part of it could be our really busy lives these days. I'm sure a lot of people on this board have listened to music that they've not been interested in at first, but grown to love in the end. I think a lot of people don't have time to give music those extra listens, and this is what record companies are cashing in on. They have recognised how hectic lives are now, especially in cities, and are making music with cheap thrills and catchy beats to entertain immediately, but for a short period of time. And it's working. The only people I know who like music outside of the mainstream are people who have time for music, and have a passion for it, whereas most mainstream fans are the ones who don't indulge in music and just listen to it because it's on the radio.

I feel this is a supportable idea.

We only need look at other arts as more examples. Can you possibly imagine another Ten Commandments scale film being as successful and appluaded in today's world? How often have we heard film-makers admitting studios want a particular time length so as to not bore the audience? How often do the masses groan at the idea of an opera exceeding three hours?

Has society lost attention to detail because of busy working lives? Has it destroyed it's own intelligence to survive?

 

[Kir-ir-Bannog]

The decline of dance music quality since the late 90's is something which prompted me to move away from it, but also was something which first raised my awareness as to a degradation of music and compositional quality.

I was a big fan of house, breakbeat, jungle, garage, speed garage and techno back in the late 80's and through to the late 90's (you can also extend this to some extend backwards to baggy and shoegazing i.e. Stone Roses, early Blur as well). The rise of "doof" which literally is directional noise is shocking (now what people call trance, but I could hardly associate this crap with the compositional and aural brilliance that true European trance reigned with for some time).

I'm sure there are some composers doing some awesome work for electronic music still, however, I feel the days of FSOL, Drax, Dave Clarke's brilliance among many others has come and long gone.

It's alarming now to hear people remixing old classics (which imo, couldn't be further remixed because of their perfection) and turning it into diluted trash, and the masses swallow it whole.

It seems that kids these days, especially Gen Y and younger for the most part, have a very low standard of music. Dance music has become a dull and dumb form, no longer indicative of it's highly intelligent and creative past.

Fantastic post, sounds like you and me were "at it" around the same time. Oh how i love FSOL, Papua New Guinea is one of my fav all time electronic tracks and Lifeforms was just mind blowing. The 90's was THE period for electronic dance music (Although i have to say that i always found speed garage to be the real mongrel of the bunch and i pretty much hated all of it) and i agree with you, that this recent crappy radio trance has really "fooled" the younger generation with its constant radio play. I always look back on the early to mid 90's and feel happy that i was part of a really good scene. I think by the end of the decade things were going down the pan....remix after remix, and overuse of a vocal single sample (Fat Boy Slim is a good example of how to spoil a track by endless looping of one annoying vocal sample).

 

[Hubster]

FSOL's ISDN has a really *REALLY* special place in my heart I tell you.
What an album. A master-fucking-piece.

So much can be said, as you stated, for all dance music around that time, around the globe. The level of creativity was just incredibly proactive and high, when you sit back and really think about it it's almost too much to try and comprehend.

I'll never forget how I felt when I first heard and then bought the 12" of Dave Clarke's "Wisdom To The Wise". I'm no vinyl junkie, but I tell you, I'd guard that record with my life... and I felt the same again when I bought Josh Wink's Higher State of Consciousness 12" as well.

You know what's missing in house these days? Those screaming divas of the early 90's, those gorgeous piano breaks. *sigh*.... just beautiful. Bring on some Black Box, it'll kick the pants of any dance post-1999.

 

[Nothinggod]

You did refer to people in this topic as pseudo intellectuals..

Actually, just to argue the point, I did no such thing. Let me once again play devil's advocate here and pose yet another hypothesis. Could one muse in a pseudo-intellectual fashion and not be a pseudo-intellectual? I would say that it comes down to the approach taken to the topic at hand. On another point, I used the phrase "faux intellectual."

But far from contributing nothing to this thread I would say that I brought up some very relevant points about both the topic and it's relative debators. In my OPINION, that is. Given, my use of the term 'morons' was somewhat provocative and admittedly arbitrary, not to mention subjective. Take that as more of a concession than an appology though.