The Downloading Poll (at the behest of Management)

[ALowerDeep]

I'll say it again, i'd rather go to ProgPowerUSA than owning 10-12 albums that I could get anywhere on the internet.

If you download you may not have a Progpower to go to. Alot of bands of this genre barely get by or have trouble getting labels or keeping labels. Labels want sales, no sales they drop the band and cease to sign more bands of that style. This is particularly a problem for US progpower bands. Such as in our case. Granted we made songs available for download so people could hear the album and see if they liked it enough to buy it. With our last CD we had well over 100,000 downloads across the net but actually sold only 1000 copies of CD. Now maybe the bulk of those downloaders thought we sucked and didn't want to buy it, that's possible, but I think it more possible they took the 3 songs or so of ours they could get for free and bought other more established bands CDs with their money. Now this is ok with us in the sense that that many people heard some of our songs and helped to get the name out there more, but it hurts in terms of trying recoup a portion of all the money spent to record and promote ourselves witout a label. There are very few bands of this genre big enough to get signed and stay signed with that kind of % of potential sales being lost.

 

[General Zod]

Downloading is the new cassette trading of the 80s. It used to be you'd make a mix tape for a friend and then they could purchase what they wanted.

I'm not sure the two are a fair comparison. With cassette trading, you were limited geographically. If your friend had it, you could get a copy of it. With MP3s, if anyone on the planet has it, you can get a copy of it. Copying cassettes was a pain in the ass and they sounded like crap. Trading MP3s is a breeze and the difference between the original and the duplicate is either negligible (192Kbps) or non-existent (FLAC).

Zod

 

[Kenso]

So when does it become wrong? When you download the third track? The fourth track? Once you have the whole disc? And why is it wrong if I buy the CD? If I buy the CD in the store blind, there's a period of time between when I've paid for the music and when I've heard it. Is it wrong that the label has been paid and I've yet to hear the music? If not, why is it wrong if I hear the music before paying the label? And what about the fact that the artists don't typically see any money from CD sales until six months after the fact?

Sounds like there's just too much gray area to state that downloading/purchasing is unequivocally wrong.

Zod

yep

after wasting money on a few releases like St Anger, you really would start to feel more and more compelled to download the stuff first.

im going to be completely honest, im still going to do it, regardless if its right or wrong. i support the music industry how ever much i can to where it doesnt make any kind of negative impact on my financial status, but if i know im never going to buy a cd, then ill probably just download it to check it out.

 

[Ascension]

The music industry claims that downloading is costing them money.

The gaming industry is costing them more money than anything. I have nephews...14, 19, 21...who will spend their last dime on a new game for their XBox, Playstation, etc. They borrow cds from friends to rip...they'll swap...what one doesn't buy, the other will...it's a trade off. More music gets swapped than bought. Download? Pfft...they don't have time for that because of the countless hours they spend in front of the TV screen & wired into the gaming consoles.

 

[DAVETHEMETALGUY]

dont bring up St. Anger.
jesus. i have never felt MORE shafted than 30 seconds after that cd started
anyhoo, i dont download cause i still have dialup. hahahah

 

[General Zod]

The gaming industry is costing them more money than anything. I have nephews...14, 19, 21...who will spend their last dime on a new game for their XBox, Playstation, etc. They borrow cds from friends to rip...they'll swap...what one doesn't buy, the other will...it's a trade off. More music gets swapped than bought. Download? Pfft...they don't have time for that because of the countless hours they spend in front of the TV screen & wired into the gaming consoles.

The gaming industry isn't immune either. I had a friend who bought a $30 mod chip off the web for the previous generation of Xbox. He downloaded every game there was. I'm not sure if mod chips exist yet for the new generation of game consoles, but they will.

Zod

 

[Jibrille]

I'm not sure the two are a fair comparison. With cassette trading, you were limited geographically. If your friend had it, you could get a copy of it. With MP3s, if anyone on the planet has it, you can get a copy of it. Copying cassettes was a pain in the ass and they sounded like crap. Trading MP3s is a breeze and the difference between the original and the duplicate is either negligible (192Kbps) or non-existent (FLAC).

Zod

Well, that's why I added "This is just much more widespread and unfortunately too many people are of the mind not to support the artist in the end mostly because there's not as much a loss of quality just keeping mp3s around than a tape recorded from another tape."
By widespread I meant the global access of it.
In many ways it makes it even better because I have few friends that I have not met through the world wide web who listen to this type of music and of them, I'm the most passionate about it so I'm the one they go to for new bands. I rely on places like this to inform me of bands I've never heard of. And when my money is not at risk, I'm also more likely to try out some band just because someone is sharing them under a genre I like and hell, I just happen to like the name of the band. If it's a dud, I'll delete the mp3s and I didn't waste $15. If it's awesome, I'll pick up the CD of a band I would have otherwise likely never bothered with. I'll easily spend over $100 in the dealer's room simply replacing mp3s. I have no problem spending that kind of money when I know what I'm getting. I do when I know I'm likely to end up wasting $50 of it much like when I was a kid before there was much of an internet. And those were usually purchases based off of radio listening so I wasn't buying completely blind.

The gaming industry isn't immune either. I had a friend who bought a $30 mod chip off the web for the previous generation of Xbox. He downloaded every game there was. I'm not sure if mod chips exist yet for the new generation of game consoles, but they will.

Zod

I know they do for the 360 & Wii. Most likely they do for the PS3 as well.

 

[eaeolian]

I downloaded Falconer's Northwind before it was ever released, but I had also pre-ordered it prior to downloading. I downloaded that particular album simply because I couldn't wait. Once my CD came, I deleted the download.

I do that frequently. (Symphony X and Kamelot come to mind.) Impatience about music has always been a weakness.

 

[Creeps]

Being a single dad I can't go out and spend $500 at the vendor tables, or anywhere else for that matter, on a whim anymore. I try to download or find decent sized song clips before I buy anything now.

 

[rms]

If you download you may not have a Progpower to go to. Alot of bands of this genre barely get by or have trouble getting labels or keeping labels. Labels want sales, no sales they drop the band and cease to sign more bands of that style. This is particularly a problem for US progpower bands. Such as in our case. Granted we made songs available for download so people could hear the album and see if they liked it enough to buy it. With our last CD we had well over 100,000 downloads across the net but actually sold only 1000 copies of CD. Now maybe the bulk of those downloaders thought we sucked and didn't want to buy it, that's possible, but I think it more possible they took the 3 songs or so of ours they could get for free and bought other more established bands CDs with their money. Now this is ok with us in the sense that that many people heard some of our songs and helped to get the name out there more, but it hurts in terms of trying recoup a portion of all the money spent to record and promote ourselves witout a label. There are very few bands of this genre big enough to get signed and stay signed with that kind of % of potential sales being lost.

I think more bands depend on touring/merch for $ than CD's. I buy shirts/concert tickets all the time but I cant afford these CDs.

 

[Creeps]

depending on the shows you go to, you could buy 2-3 cds for 1 shirt


cds for the win.

 

[Jibrille]

I try to get both CDs & t-shirts at concerts but it seems bands lately either bring only the latest or none at all(a lot or are touring before the US label's release and can't sell them). I love when bands sell their back catalog for good prices at a show. I purchased like $100 worth of CDs & t-shirts the first time I saw The Gathering.

 

[Dark One]

Whoa, I'm shocked 5 people have selected the first option so far.

Jason

 

[AMBR]

Well, overall I think downloading is illegal and wrong. A lot of people say they download songs to find albums they like then buy them and I know some people here truly do that. But so many more will only buy the ones they really love....or maybe if they have the money....someday. With samples on the internet and internet radio, I think there's enough legitimate sources to sample a CD to determine if you like it enough to buy it.
I just don't think there are enough honest buyers who download first to justify it entirely.

 

[Perditions Ghost]

Being only 15, I don't have a job to get money to go blindly buying CDs. Whatever money I get goes first towards concerts and merch at the shows (Because I've heard bands get more money off that than they do from CD purchases), then I buy CDs. I will download it first to listen, and then I'll delete it when I get the CD or if I don't think I have any intention of ever buying it. Mainly what I download is leaked CDs because I can't wait for the albums to come out, but I buy them the moment I have the money.

And, like many others, I wouldn't have any idea about most of the bands I listen to if it weren't for downloading. Cheers.

 

[ALowerDeep]

I think more bands depend on touring/merch for $ than CD's. I buy shirts/concert tickets all the time but I cant afford these CDs.

No, your'e right, we do make our money from merchandise at shows much more so than CD sales, but my point was that the labels care primarily about CD sales. So, low sales can quickly put a halt to a young band or a band that is not in the "big" category, which is 90% of progpower style bands.

 

[Joe-×]

Downloading is OK if you buy what you like. It should be non-criminal, non-tort-inducing even if you don't buy what you like.

 

[Nightmare1z]

I'm fine with the argument for buying music you like, and deleting it otherwise - be efficient with your money (though I personally don't).

However, I hate the argument when "I have no money" and thus download my music. You are not owed anything. Music is a form of entertainment. Everyone has financial issues. People have sacrifices to make. Being tight on money does not give you more of a right to be able to download than other people.

Also, the argument can work both ways. 1) I wouldn't have discovered many of these new bands without downloading. 2) I wouldn't have discovered many of these new bands without buying that CD. For instance, I wouldn't have discovered power metal at all if I hadn't read on some random site a review calling Avantasia Pt 1 album of the year. I then was at Media Play and saw it, and the rest is history. If you just listened to samples posted, you could discover lots of new music. If you bought lots of CD's based on recommendations, you could discover new music. And if you download entire albums, you can discover new music. The benefit with downloading is - it's free, it's fast, and there's no physical association for what you do

This isn't directed specifically at anyone on this thread. Just my dealings with people on a day to day basis. Sometimes I think people have many reasons to download just to help justify it to themselves. I completely understand wanting to be happy with what you pay for. But there are many things in life you just don't know until you buy it if you like it. Unfortunatly, our society is migrating to an attitude of "I should get what I want". Personally, I know maybe 2 other people at my work that buy CD's. I just wonder how it'll look in 20 years

 

[DMin42]

No, your'e right, we do make our money from merchandise at shows much more so than CD sales, but my point was that the labels care primarily about CD sales. So, low sales can quickly put a halt to a young band or a band that is not in the "big" category, which is 90% of progpower style bands.

I'm all for bands being able to make a living with their music. I buy a fair number of discs each year......usually more than I should at one certain festival in Atlanta. As much as I love the feeling of putting something new into my cd player and being blown away........I hate when that something new sucks. Now the core of my argument for sampling before buying, is the fact that the "label" produces a cd that costs literally pennies to make and turns around and tries to sell it to me for $15 maybe as much as $20.

That isn't necessarily a huge sum of money......but it is more than I'm willing to set on fire. That said.....I rarely buy a cd from a band I've never heard before without checking it out first. I absolutely LOVE bands that have decent media content on their websites.


By the way......I was 1 of the 1000 in that cd sales statistic.....you guys kick ass

 

[General Zod]

However, I hate the argument when "I have no money" and thus download my music. You are not owed anything. Music is a form of entertainment. Everyone has financial issues. People have sacrifices to make. Being tight on money does not give you more of a right to be able to download than other people.

Excellent point.

I completely understand wanting to be happy with what you pay for. But there are many things in life you just don't know until you buy it if you like it.

But the reality is, CDs are no longer in this group.

To your other points, you can discover music based on reviews. You can also discover that the reviewer didn't have the slightest clue what he/she was talking about, and you're now out $12. You can discover songs from samples. You can also discover that the samples weren't at all representative of the disc as a whole, and you're now out $12.

In the end, I tend to think our community isn't representative of the downloading public. We're fortunate enough to rub elbows with the musicians who provide us with all this great music. We see that they're not pulling up to ProgPower in limos and downing bottles of Dom. Consequently, I think there's a real desire to support the scene, hence the greatest number of people selecting option two in the poll.

Zod