The Downloading Poll (at the behest of Management)

[Angrafan]

During the live earth broadcast on The Universal Channel HD they showed a commercial encouraging Downloading instead of buying actual CDs so they could save energy.

The logic behind it was that trucks wouldn't have to go around the country distributing the CDs, thus saving gas.



I don't download, period.. I really don't.. I have no patience and I'd rather listen to the CD. Especially from my favorite artists! I'd rather listen to an album for the first time than download it first.. I know it makes no sense, but that's how I am
All the music preview I do is either on myspace or files that some friends send over msn... myspace is GREAT to hear new music..

 

[rms]

The more I think about this topic, are the downloaders at fault or the justice system?

 

[LunaTEKKE]

I’m obviously way in the minority here, but here’s my 2 cents anyway…

1. I wouldn’t go to a brand new restaurant with the mindset that I might or might not stiff the waiter, depending on how much I liked the food. It wouldn’t matter if I was planning to return to the restaurant later and buy another meal – or if I intended to recommend the restaurant to all my friends. I feel the same way about illegal downloading.

2. We all love free stuff, and giving away free samples can be a great marketing tactic for any product – including music. However, it should be left up to the individual artists to determine whether or not they believe the potential payoff is worth giving away their music for free.

3. Legitimate advance reviews can build a great buzz around a new release. However, I believe that early leaks actually detract from the excitement surrounding a new release. Discussion on this forum of the new Dream Theater and Circus Maximus CDs was pretty much dead by the time the street dates hit. I’m afraid that the new Circus Maximus release is headed down the same path.

4. I’ve posted this on other forums, but I think it sucks that an individual who was entrusted with a promo copy of an album would leak it to the public. I wish someone would figure out how to tag promo copies, so that the source of the “leak” could be identified and barred from receiving future releases.

5. I don’t buy the argument that downloading is OK because the artists/labels charge too much for CDs. We all have to make tradeoffs to ensure that our income covers our basic obligations and necessities – with enough left over to invest in pursuits that bring real joy to our lives.

 

[General Zod]

1. I wouldn’t go to a brand new restaurant with the mindset that I might or might not stiff the waiter, depending on how much I liked the food. It wouldn’t matter if I was planning to return to the restaurant later and buy another meal – or if I intended to recommend the restaurant to all my friends. I feel the same way about illegal downloading.

The analogy you drew was between the waiter and the food. The correct analogy would have been between the waiter and the waiter's service. The waiter is in control of the quality of his service, the artist is in control of the quality of the music. If the waiter spits in my food and calls me a fat bastard, I'm not tipping him. Did you hear Monday Morning Apocalypse? The quality of that CD was the equivalent of Evergrey calling us all fat bastards!

3. Legitimate advance reviews can build a great buzz around a new release. However, I believe that early leaks actually detract from the excitement surrounding a new release. Discussion on this forum of the new Dream Theater and Circus Maximus CDs was pretty much dead by the time the street dates hit. I’m afraid that the new Circus Maximus release is headed down the same path.

Excitement doesn't necessarily correlate to sales. Since I download 95% of the CDs I buy, before I buy them, I'm rarely get excited about the disc actually being released. That doesn't stop me from buying it the day it is.

4. I’ve posted this on other forums, but I think it sucks that an individual who was entrusted with a promo copy of an album would leak it to the public. I wish someone would figure out how to tag promo copies, so that the source of the “leak” could be identified and barred from receiving future releases.

Agreed. Although I download, I never share.

5. I don’t buy the argument that downloading is OK because the artists/labels charge too much for CDs. We all have to make tradeoffs to ensure that our income covers our basic obligations and necessities – with enough left over to invest in pursuits that bring real joy to our lives.

Nor do I. That said, I feel zero sympathy for the major labels. Their entire business model is based on ripping off both the artist and the consumer.

Zod

 

[yardleybates]

I'll let you give them to her yourself in October.

Zod

Deal!

be careful what you wish for... you might not see your wife the rest of the weekend.

Don't worry, Zod has that uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time just like Yippee.

 

[skyrefuge]

1. I wouldn’t go to a brand new restaurant with the mindset that I might or might not stiff the waiter, depending on how much I liked the food.

Yes, but if the restaurant was set up like the CD sales model, the deal would be that you'd need to pay $1000 up-front, and then be allowed to eat there as many times as you wanted after that ($20 meal x 50 visits). I'm guessing you would never try the restaurant at all if that's how it worked.

That's why I think the most equitable thing for everyone involved would be a pay-per-listen scheme ($0.10 to $1.00 per album listen), which would then be just like the restaurant analogy.

3. Legitimate advance reviews can build a great buzz around a new release. However, I believe that early leaks actually detract from the excitement surrounding a new release.

And that's why labels should make their product available for sale electronically immediately when promos are released. (and why everyone should get over their need for a hard copy! )

Neil

 

[Dark One]

Interesting points - I had a feeling this thread would resurrect Neil.

 

[LunaTEKKE]

The analogy you drew was between the waiter and the food. The correct analogy would have been between the waiter and the waiter's service. The waiter is in control of the quality of his service, the artist is in control of the quality of the music. If the waiter spits in my food and calls me a fat bastard, I'm not tipping him. Did you hear Monday Morning Apocalypse? The quality of that CD was the equivalent of Evergrey calling us all fat bastards!

Actually, I *was* referring to the food – even though the comparison is a bit off because the waiter is the middleman in collecting the $$. I agree that it’s appropriate to tip based on the level of service -- and there are some fairly objective criteria for determining what constitutes “bad” service.

However, food preferences are just as subjective as musical preferences. So it would seem very unfair to the restaurant if patrons walked in with the mentality that they were going to “dine and dash” unless the meal perfectly matched their personal preferences.

We’ve had a few threads recently on what elements of metal folks most enjoy, what songs give us “goosebumps”, and what songs most irritate us. Posters are all over the board in terms of liking crunchy guitars vs. keyboards, clean vocals vs. “growly” vocals, etc., etc.. Under a “pay for what you like” model, will artists still be free to create music that inspires them – or will they simply cater to the faction that has the most buying power?

As for Monday Morning Apocolypse, I bought the CD and shelved it after two listens. But I’m sure someone on these boards *did* find it to their liking…

 

[Metalhed]

((I actually read through it all before posting - interesting read so far))

Downloading music that I did not pay for is illegal. There is no question here about right or wrong - it is wrong.

That said - I am constantly downloading music. There are many reasons for this:

1) I am impatient - if a new album is leaked for a band I like, I download it immediately and listen to it. I always end up buying it on release day. I have seen the arguments about having the actual disc and packaging and excitedly opening it, etc. For me, my first listen will be digital anyway - I rip everything I buy before I play it anywhere else, so whether I get the package or not is unimprotant to me.

2) I want to sample - there are so many bands available today, especially in metal, that if I have the chance to hear an album before buying, I will. While I think it is good bands give you the option to sample some songs, it is songs they chose. I prefer to hear the whole CD and form my opinion then. I may find I like 3 other songs they didn't offer as samples. I normally listen to CD's from front to back.

3) I want the best price before I buy - I will end up buying 90% of what I download, but not always immediately. Some bands CD's (WASP's Dominator for example) are not available in the US yet other than as an import. I will wait until it does see a US release and purchase it then. I also prefer to wait until I see the price I want. Many great online shops exist, and I will check them all for the best price. Sometimes that means waiting a bit for one of the other shops to get a CD in stock. It is possible I have a long list of CD's I want and I need to prioritize what I can buy, some have to wait. As I said, I will end up buying what I download sooner or later.

My reasons above are not offered to justify what I download - it is illegal. They are meant to describe why I download.

I own over 1000 CD's. I receive 2 to 3 packages a week in the mail from online music distributors (mostly The End Records). I make 3 or 4 large purchases of lesser known music from Sentinel Steel (they feature alot of unknown or lesser known power/heavy metal) during their site sales. I am at Best Buy on Release Tuesday for anything mainstream (Maiden, Dream Theate, etc).

Downloading has opened up my ears to some great metal that I might not have otherwise tried. It occasionally saves me from wasting $15-$20 on a CD.

As for the interview with Mr. Schaeffer, while I understand his points and concerns, I feel MP3's to be a wonderful thing for the music fan. The ability to take hundreds of your favorite CD's with you in your pocket is great. I can sit at my desk at work and set up a playlist of albums in WinAmp and just let it run without having to change discs. I can keep music on my cell phone and have it with me anywhere. Again, from this side of the industry, the listener, MP3's are great.

Digital music is a great thing. What we haven't come up with yet is a way to protect it from theft, a way to only allow the purchaser to create and play the MP3/WMA/FLAC file. That is where improvements are needed.

 

[dew]

The argument that will be made will be "I'm financially strapped and I can't afford a car so I hotwired one". Or something to that effect.

It's not even close to that. If somebody is downloading an album that there is absolutely no chance that they would've bought in the first place, NOBODY loses ANYTHING. If somebody steals a car, somebody loses their car. That's where the "downloading is stealing" argument is flawed, in true stealing, one party gains something and one party loses something. In downloading, nobody loses anything. The loss in sale by people who download and don't buy is made up for by the exposure that the people who download-and-buy and the people who tell their friends who end up buying.

Obviously that doesn't apply to the popular radio artists, who definately lose out. I don't mean to say all downloading is okay, just that there's a good side and the "I dont have the money for this expensive, physical, unique item that people worked hard to create and I'm just going to rip somebody off and steal something they worked for months to buy" argument is just downright stupid.

 

[Rezz]

Downloading music is my radio. Not a single artist that has played ProgPower has ever made it on to the radio where I live. Not one. The only reason I know about them and tons of other bands is through downloading and sharing with friends. I buy what I like and I now have almost 4000 original, factory-pressed CDs. Once a band get's 'established' in my collection I will usually pre-order their new CDs unheard - the new At Vance arrived two days ago.

Unfortunately I know that my purchasing habits are rare. I make a very good living and can afford to buy whatever I want. Still, there are too many bands out there for me to buy CDs without hearing them. I've purchased too many CDs that suck to do that. Surf the web and download samples? Between work and my family I don't have time for that. This is the only forum I check and, honestly, I work in technology so the last thing I want to do at night is surf the web. Most kids these days don't have the money to buy CDs, let alone everything that the popular media and their peers are telling them that they absolutely need to have if they want to be considered cool. Is it any wonder we have reached this point? Companies spend billions in advertising telling teen-agers to buy! buy! BUY! and they are surprised that they can't afford it all?

Relying exclusively on downloading is wrong. Period. I really wish I knew what the answer was... Just my 2 cents.

 

[No-Mercy]

i used to download only when bands would allow. (really, the MP3 section of century media got me into it all). and i started buying bands from there. soon after i got itunes and shop on there now, so ive never been a downloader and not a buyer. the only songs i get and never buy the album are those offered as samples by the band or label.

 

[Greykiller]

I was gonna select the last option but i dont know how to select options so...

 

[batmura]

Did you hear Monday Morning Apocalypse? The quality of that CD was the equivalent of Evergrey calling us all fat bastards!

LMAO Hey Zod, you fucking rule.

 

[LunaTEKKE]

It's not even close to that. If somebody is downloading an album that there is absolutely no chance that they would've bought in the first place, NOBODY loses ANYTHING. If somebody steals a car, somebody loses their car.

Why download an album you know you would never buy?

It’s true that downloading isn’t *exactly* the same as stealing a physical object from someone. But there are still "losers." For every album that you download, someone put up the $$ for studio time, engineering and production services, mastering, artwork, manufacturing, distribution, etc., etc..

For every release where the investor (whether that’s a label or the individual artist) ends up in the red, it becomes less and less likely that we’ll have an opportunity to enjoy future releases from that artist.

 

[KingsGene]

Capitol Records Ordered to Pay Attorney Fees

"For the first time ever, the RIAA has been ordered to pay attorney fees in the "Capitol Records, Inc. vs. Debbie Foster and Amanda Foster" case..."

http://www.slyck.com/story1540.html

 

[No-Mercy]

i think downloading anything the band/record label doesn't offer is wrong if you dont purchase what would be necessary to have gotten it without downloading. if u dl a bootleg, but the dvd. if u dl a song, buy the album.

the only downloading thats right, imo, is when the band or label offers it to you.

 

[DAVETHEMETALGUY]

trucks saving gas...rrriiiiight.

yeah, i have no patience for downloading either. i must need more Adderall. if i hear something i like on myspace or something i'll seek out a cd. but downloading whole albums, nope

During the live earth broadcast on The Universal Channel HD they showed a commercial encouraging Downloading instead of buying actual CDs so they could save energy.

The logic behind it was that trucks wouldn't have to go around the country distributing the CDs, thus saving gas.



I don't download, period.. I really don't.. I have no patience and I'd rather listen to the CD. Especially from my favorite artists! I'd rather listen to an album for the first time than download it first.. I know it makes no sense, but that's how I am
All the music preview I do is either on myspace or files that some friends send over msn... myspace is GREAT to hear new music..

 

[Kenneth R.]

I voted #2, and I won't have to type out my reasons because Zod already has.

 

[KingsGene]

EU's top court deals blow to music industry's fight against file-sharing

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/pos...sic-industrys-fight-against-file-sharing.html