The downside of the Green Movement

[Kenneth R.]

So, I love environmentally conscious people. I really do. But some of their chicken little esque panicking has resulted in some bad lawmaking.

Who likes incandescent bulbs? Cause chances are, your government is going to ban the sale of them in the next 4 years.
In the name of efficiency of electricity.
They think that by switching to Compact Flourescent bulbs (CFL) they can help the environment and reduce your electrical consumption.
Some of my compatriots in environmental defense are cheering loudly.

But why would we forsake Edison's masterpiece for the CFL when the incandescent bulb, unlike CFLs, do not contain Mercury gas, do not emit UV rays, and do not flicker at or at double mains frequency (imagine 60,120 times per second). There are so many environmental and health concerns with flourescent lighting. And let's not forget that their color index is, on the scale of 0 to 100, never 100. Sunlight rates at 100 and so do most incandescent bulbs. LEDs are horrid at 70. And let's not even discuss that CFLs are much costlier than incandescent bulbs.

Clean Energy Act of 2007. Thank you for making the world a safer, more ecofriendly place. Oh wait, you didn't. You made it worse, and in the future, I'll have to buy my bulbs black market just to have that nice homely lighting.

ADDED: Oh, and CFLs hum too. And they interfere with radio frequency devices like TV remotes and stereos. Imagine how fucked American recording studios are going to be when this goes into effect.

 

[Pellaz]

Lousy eco-legislation based on appealing to everyone's State of Fear? Nahhh, never happens.



(With a nod and an apology to Michael Crichton )

 

[Kenneth R.]

too true. On the other side of the coin, the rest of the Clean Energy Act is great progress. This bit about light bulbs slipped through and it pisses me off.

 

[Yippee38]

All those riders on bills piss me off.

 

[spag]

With luck, LED lighting will become more commonplace and people will stop buying CFLs.

The city recycling places won't take them because of the Mercury, so people are pretty much stuck with throwing them out. There is no education for people not to do so anyway, and they are way to stupid to read the packaging. When the magic light making thingy goes bad, it'll just go in the trash like their bulbs always did. I bet half the population doesn't even know the difference.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I'll switch to LEDs when they can produce accurate, high rating color indecies. I want my light to be full spectrum (as much as possible) and low color temperature.

 

[Diamond45]

So, I love environmentally conscious people. I really do. But some of their chicken little esque panicking has resulted in some bad lawmaking.

I like saving the environment too. I'm also an electrical engineer. CFLs are the second worst thing for indoor lighting. LEDs would be the absolute worst! (and yes, they flicker too!) Best light - incandescent bulbs!

ADDED: Oh, and CFLs hum too. And they interfere with radio frequency devices like TV remotes and stereos. Imagine how fucked American recording studios are going to be when this goes into effect.

Computers are bad enough with their switched power supplies. Thank God that the BPL (broadband over power lines) pretty much is going to go away. The interference with that would be so great that everything would be effed up!

Also - people don't realize how much added hazardous waste would be generated with CFLs. The ballasts are not recycleable (they should be!) and they'll clog up landfills worse than regular flourescent tubes or incandescent bulbs.

Ugh.... fixing one problem, causing many more problems.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I'm an EE too. Why aren't we being consulted about these laws?!

 

[Pellaz]

Plunging headlong into bad green-friendly legislation (public sector) or lousy eco-business decisions (private sector) is becoming more and more common. The ideas sound great on paper, and then the starry-eyed legislators or CEOs kinda forget to ask the engineers about the nuts-and-bolts, heavy lifting parts.

Case in point: the rush to embrace ethanol.

 

[Kenneth R.]

And other vegetable oil based fuel options. Wahoo, lower gas costs! Wahoo, higher food prices.

 

[Diamond45]

I'm an EE too. Why aren't we being consulted about these laws?!

Dunno.... My guess is that most environmentalists aren't engineers!

 

[Diamond45]

And other vegetable oil based fuel options. Wahoo, lower gas costs! Wahoo, higher food prices.

At first, I thought corn based ethenol was the greatest thing since in theory we would be less dependent on foreign oil. I thought there was a glut of corn and there would be plenty to spare for fuel. Unfortunately we all know that is not the case.

I'm a bit fan of wind for electricity generation. But the wonderful NIMBYs don't like those wind generators, and are concerned about a few birds here and there.

With everything - you have your upside and downside.

 

[Kenneth R.]

There's a price to all solutions. Sure we could all become vegans and live in the dark, but that'd be nearly a return to our genesis as a species, rather than progress. I'd like to see a smart compromise, but we all know that smart and government don't go in the same sentence unless 'ass' is appended.

 

[J-Man]

Here's one for you: In El Paso we now pay a waste water run off tax. What is that you ask? it is a tax based on rain water run off on your property based on the amount of either asphalt or concrete you have around your home or business. Reason for this tax? We don't pay enought in taxes as is.

 

[Kaosaur]

Let's not forget that incandescent bulbs are like miniature space heaters and have been directly responsible for billions of dollars (conservative) worth of fire damage. They are inefficient power hogs that lose more input energy to heat than they use giving off light. There is already a very high quality LED bulb (comparable to normal light) that fits in a standard socket and has a life of 30,000 hours that has left prototype and will be in production by the end of this year. Let's not forget that these bulbs use a FRACTION of the energy currently going into your standard bulb.

I, for one, welcome a time when LED lighting is the standard and incandescent bulbs are a thing of the past (used for specialized applications only: gas detector bulbs in mines, Vanco inspection lamps, etc.) This is the greatest bit of progress of that entire bill!

By the way, my late grandfather made his fortune manufacturing miniature/custom light bulbs.

 

[Kenneth R.]

what's the color temperature of that LED bulb? and, as Diamond45 mentioned, do they flicker (I assume yes based on the principle of LED)? Power saving is a great thing.

But there are other concerns, such as accuracy of illumination, eco friendly recycle-ability, and oh, you seem to feel that energy wasted on heat instead of light is a terrible thing. Absolutely, if you live in Florida. I'm sure the excess heat generated by many incandescent bulbs helps put a dent in heating costs for some northerly residents.

 

[Diamond45]

what's the color temperature of that LED bulb? and, as Diamond45 mentioned, do they flicker (I assume yes based on the principle of LED)? Power saving is a great thing.

(geek speak)LEDs work by the process of electrons being charged and moving from one energy level to a higher one. When the electron comes back down to the original energy level, it emits a photon (light). So the light is not steady. It is constantly turning on and off, many times a second.(/geek speak)

But there are other concerns, such as accuracy of illumination, eco friendly recycle-ability, and oh, you seem to feel that energy wasted on heat instead of light is a terrible thing. Absolutely, if you live in Florida. I'm sure the excess heat generated by many incandescent bulbs helps put a dent in heating costs for some northerly residents.

It is a known fact that incandescent bulbs are very inefficient. But then again the internal combustion engine is also highly inefficient - yet we drive them each and every day!

You want a heat generator? Try my computers! They put out more heat then the incandescent bulbs in the room where they reside. CPUs are known to be great sources of heat!

Fluorescent bulbs are much more efficient light sources, but at the price of a reduced color spectrum. Mercury vapor lamps are just as bad. But those god-awful sodium vapor lamps you see on the highways and parking lots are just ugly with the shitty yellow light.

So each kind of light bulb has its place. But I wish to choose how and where I wish to use them. Just don't force it down my throat.

 

[Kenneth R.]

(geek speak)LEDs work by the process of electrons being charged and moving from one energy level to a higher one. When the electron comes back down to the original energy level, it emits a photon (light). So the light is not steady. It is constantly turning on and off, many times a second.(/geek speak)

That's what I meant when I said I assume so based on the principle of how LED's work.

There's also talk that there are teams working on improving the incandescent bulb, though they may not be soon enough to beat the ban.

 

[Pellaz]

Dunno.... My guess is that most environmentalists aren't true scientists!

Fixed.

I'm a bit fan of wind for electricity generation. But the wonderful NIMBYs don't like those wind generators, and are concerned about a few birds here and there.

And the fact that most areas don't have steady enough wind flow to use windfarms for large-scale power generation.

With everything - you have your upside and downside.

Well, almost everything.

Most futurists already know what the ultimate answer will be for electrical power generation, but it will take several decades (at least) and increased funding to eventually bring it online. Hint: Google "ITER".

 

[Kaosaur]

and oh, you seem to feel that energy wasted on heat instead of light is a terrible thing. Absolutely, if you live in Florida. I'm sure the excess heat generated by many incandescent bulbs helps put a dent in heating costs for some northerly residents.

It's a terrible thing no matter where you live. It's waste and inefficiency and power conservation is much more important than we think...on a scale that's greater than any individual's cost issues.