The downside of the Green Movement

[Kaosaur]

Flicker and hum are a problem for nearby electronic devices and sound recording gear. They can disrupt signals.

Since you obviously think you're better and smarter than everyone I'll just let this go. I know when it's useless to discuss further with a brick.

Cellphones and computer screens put out more EM than any of these lights could ever hope to.

What's your point? OMG save the recording studios!!!
This minor issue (if it even is one) fails to have one shred of significance compared to the entire freight train sized argument on the other side of yours. That's just how it is, sorry.

 

[mëtålspëd]

There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. Truth be known, LEDs are still in their infancy. The standard dual pin LED is going the way of the dodo. There are much higher quality units coming to market (like PCB chip mounted "light emitters" with special optical focusing). With these higher efficiency units, you CAN adjust color temperature, lumen output, and CRI very easily. Certain proprietary engines have been "opened" and its damn near an arms race now. Also, the points about EM are all based in "theoreticals"... the EM values are very insignificant (unless you are running a 10k piece array or something).

I have, and am still, designing products that utilize LEDs.

 

[Urban breed]

Would you ever load up a studio with them?

I don't think I would. Well, maybe, I'd consult my brother first though. Flourescent lighting then? Woaaa..... never!

 

[Urban breed]

This minor issue (if it even is one) fails to have one shred of significance

Unless, of course, you happen to run one.

 

[nailz]

you! out of here with your logic and your signifigance! there is no place on the internet for that kind of thing!

 

[Kenneth R.]

An engineer would think of it this way: Using LEDs and CFLs may be a better efficient use of electricity. However, the quality of the light is poor and the side effects of the system cause havoc on other sensitive electronics.

A non-engineer: You pay for a gallon of water. However, you can only use 16 oz of the water and the rest goes down the drain if you use an incandescent bulb, but the water tastes great. You can be able to use 32 oz of water per gallon if you go with CFLs, but the water tastes funny. Finally, if you can use 64 oz or even more if you use LEDs, but the water tastes like shit.

Good enough?

I give up on them. This thread is further proof of my intital post. cheers man

 

[Diamond45]

I have, and am still, designing products that utilize LEDs.

LEDs are getting better all the time. But you'll still have flicker that I cannot stand.

 

[mëtålspëd]

LEDs are getting better all the time. But you'll still have flicker that I cannot stand.

Well I can only comment on my usage and practical feedback on stuff we have designed.... there is no flicker (at least not perceivable to the human eye). Some of our items are used in applications where optical systems and cameras are used... a camera will be the first thing to let you know if the refresh rate of the light isnt kosher. We came out with a no-flicker (again, to the human eye), completely dimmable fluorescent product almost 15 years ago now. Without question LED will be a superior product in all respects.

 

[kashford]

Dear Gas Prices and Ethanol believers,
Please stop using corn! Farmers are slowly inflating the market with corn in order to make a quick profit off the Green Movement and thus, causing other food prices to rise.
I really wish the United States would lift the trade ban with Cuba to allow the import of real sugar into the country; as well as easing the tariffs that exist with sugar producers elsewhere (notably, Brasil). We could make ethanol cheaper, easier, and more efficient with the use of sugarcane, not corn... not to mention all the extra fossil fuels we burn trying to vaporise the crude oil to a high enough heat in order to produce ethanol!

I really hate the energy/Green movement. I don't hate it for the stance it takes, because I wholeheartedly agree with the need to do something about the increased emission of greenhouse gases. Yet, almost all of the legislation produced ends up creating new problems, while only solving 1-2. The Green Movement started off as a general concern, and since it has turned into a lifestyle movement and a political movement, someone can label anything as being 'Green' in order to play on consumer fears and pocket a quick profit.

So to all the haters and politicians - let the scientists do this stuff, this is a reason why they got their degrees in the first place!

 

[freakchylde]

If that becomes the norm, I'm suing my government for treatment of my migraines. It's the whole reason why I don't go to many movies anymore either. When they changed the format to the higher resolutions, it causes too much flickering, which triggers migraines. Turner's headquarters had lights with the same problem in my dept. So I turned my overhead lights off in my office, and stuck with two low-wattage desk lamps (of course, that contributed to my high position on the to-be-layed-off list). But I'm really not a fan of getting migraines, especially since they're occular based and meds don't do jack shit.

 

[freakchylde]

I really wish the United States would lift the trade ban with Cuba to allow the import of real sugar into the country; as well as easing the tariffs that exist with sugar producers elsewhere (notably, Brasil). We could make ethanol cheaper, easier, and more efficient with the use of sugarcane, not corn... not to mention all the extra fossil fuels we burn trying to vaporise the crude oil to a high enough heat in order to produce ethanol!!

Actually, Bush already signed a trade agreement with Brasil, for the import of ethanol. Of course, that one flew under the media radar.

 

[Diamond45]

My question is - Brazil has used sugar for ethanol for a number of years, but doesn't seem to affect food prices. Yet here in the US, we're using corn and everything is affected. Anyone care to weigh on why?

 

[Diamond45]

Well I can only comment on my usage and practical feedback on stuff we have designed.... there is no flicker (at least not perceivable to the human eye).

I'd love to test your products to see if I see flicker or not. Seriously. I hate the 60hz refresh flicker on computer monitors in fluorescent light settings (since the lights are double the refresh rate).

High intensity LED arrays in traffic lights, especially at night, are highly annoying with their flicker.

I know that technology is improving things all the time. But if I can see the flicker, I won't like it. Maybe a very fast refresh will solve the problem, so some sort of "carry over" so the light always will stay lit and the human eye can't detect the flicker. Until then, I'm not a fan of the LEDs that I have seen.

 

[nailz]

you're also in the extreme minority who can see computer screens flicker at that kind of refresh rate.

 

[freakchylde]

My question is - Brazil has used sugar for ethanol for a number of years, but doesn't seem to affect food prices. Yet here in the US, we're using corn and everything is affected. Anyone care to weigh on why?

One of their main crops is sugar. They also don't subsidize farming out of existence, like we do here, which is why the food prices are going up. Limited quantity, high demand (I know they rotate between soy, corn and a few other crops, in the midwest, but they've really limited the amount of food corn).

 

[sh0kr0k]

(that can help heat your house to a small degree)

Hi. I live in Texas. In May it's 90 degrees. I live on the second floor of a house. It will only get hotter. The LAST thing I want is a lightbulb that is an effective heat-generator, increasing both the temperature and my electric bill to cool the house. This is NOT a benefit of the incandescent bulb for everyone. Unless these LED bulbs cost $300, I'm positive I'd rather have them than an incandescent. Clean white light is too harsh for my eyes, so the loss of spectrum is probably not something I'm concerned about. I can handle light that is more blue or more orange better than I can light that is clean. *shrugs* My eyes are really sensitive, I find the extra colors softening and less taxing on my vision.

If that becomes the norm, I'm suing my government for treatment of my migraines. It's the whole reason why I don't go to many movies anymore either. When they changed the format to the higher resolutions, it causes too much flickering, which triggers migraines. Turner's headquarters had lights with the same problem in my dept. So I turned my overhead lights off in my office, and stuck with two low-wattage desk lamps (of course, that contributed to my high position on the to-be-layed-off list). But I'm really not a fan of getting migraines, especially since they're occular based and meds don't do jack shit.

Here! Here! I can not express how often lights and movies give me migraines.

you're also in the extreme minority who can see computer screens flicker at that kind of refresh rate.

We all see it and our brain's all process it, it just happens that some are more sensitive to it. Like dreams. We all dream, all night long, but there are many who say they never dream and plenty who have vivid frequent dreams. I can't sense the refresh rate flicker of screens, but it is still stimulation that our brains are picking up and processing at an amazing rate. For some, it has different effects like headaches, eye strain or fatigue (ever get sore eyes after being on a computer all day?), or visual impairment (many times I have to look away and close my eyes because the lights make me see things incorrectly, like rings, ripples, and spots).

So my point is, flicker rate is important regardless of whether we can consciously see it or not. Well, unless it flickers faster than what the eyes and brain pick up, even then we'll still have stimulus of that amount per second.... I was thinking about bringing this up early after reading about flicker rate. I figured I'd be called crazy for worrying about something that happens 150 times a second or whatever the number is

In fact, this has taken me twice as long to write because I'm experiencing some of the spots right now. Probably due to the fact that I have my lamp on instead of my overhead because I'm too paranoid about buying the wrong bulb now Or because I was playing a game with intense graphic thus a high refresh-rate. My head feels like it's going to explode

Since I'm subconsciously very sensitive to audio frequencies as well, I guess the buzzing/humming CFL is off my list along with the heat-source incandescent, but I'm not importing LEDs from Sweden. So I suppose I'm stuck buying another incandescent bulb at the dollar store and sucking it up until someone gives me a better option.




....or I could just build a fire :Smug:

 

[Shamaness]

Those newer and "eco-friendly" lightbulbs may last longer, like forever since I keep waiting for them to die so I can replace them, but they give off so little light after the first 2-3 days that they may as well just die. Our physical and mental health REQUIRE better lighting than these emit.

 

[Rakosh]

End of light bulb debate!!
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"Centennial Bulb" still burning after 107 years

Wed May 14, 2008 10:44AM EDT
See Comments (208)
Buzz up![FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]on Yahoo![/FONT]
Hanging about 18 feet high in the engine bay of a Livermore, California firehouse, a humble, low-watt light bulb has been burning almost continuously since 1901. Take that, halogen!
The Los Angeles Times (via Boing Boing) recently ran a story on the remarkably resilient Centennial Bulb—a four-watt, curlicue carbon-filament lightbulb that, give or take a few brief interludes, has been burning for 24 hours a day, seven days a week for more than a century.

The bulb has become something of a lucky charm for Livermore firefighters, who (according to the LA Times story) won't even dust off the bulb for fear of damaging it.

Indeed, when the department moved to a new fire station in 1976, firefighters decided to cut the power cord rather than unscrew the fragile bulb from its socket. A motorcade of fire trucks then accompanied the Centennial Bulb (which, according to Wikipedia, was only off for about 10 minutes during the short journey) to its new home, where it's been burning continuously ever since.

What's the secret to the Centennial Bulb's longevity? As the LA Times story notes, there are many theories. One former firefighter thinks it's because the bulb, made by the long-defunct Shelby Electric Co., shines in a cool-burning vacuum thanks to a perfect seal. Others chalk it up to the fact that the bulb has almost never been turned off.

In any case, the Centennial Bulb has been drawing curiosity-seekers and news stories (including, of course, this one) since 1972, and the bulb even has its own Web site—which, unfortunately, appears to be down for now (probably due to a burst of traffic).

Check out the LA Times Web site for the full story, including many more details on the bulb's storied history.

 

[mëtålspëd]

I'd love to test your products to see if I see flicker or not. Seriously. I hate the 60hz refresh flicker on computer monitors in fluorescent light settings (since the lights are double the refresh rate).

High intensity LED arrays in traffic lights, especially at night, are highly annoying with their flicker.

I know that technology is improving things all the time. But if I can see the flicker, I won't like it. Maybe a very fast refresh will solve the problem, so some sort of "carry over" so the light always will stay lit and the human eye can't detect the flicker. Until then, I'm not a fan of the LEDs that I have seen.

Our products are industrial based.... so unfortunately you won't be able to tuck one of these arrays in a standard light fixture any time soon.

 

[Kenneth R.]

shokrok your "I live in a hot area!" argument doesn't refute my point that excess heat is still an advantage for people in Fargo. It just means it doesn't directly benefit you, or like you italicized, everyone. But it can be a positive for some people. Which is why I made the point in the first place - it's not always to be perceived as a deteriment.

I'm not very concerned with visual flickering. I AM concerned with the other side effects of flicker - namely the interferrence. I'm surprised you'd prefer a bright LED over soft white incandescent. When I'm on the highway and an approaching car has those new LED or halogen bulbs, it blinds me even if they don't have high beams on. My eyes are very sensitive like yours, but I require low lighting with full spectrum - something with around 2000-3000k color temperature. Currently there's no LED or CFL that I know of that can operate at that standard.