The downside of the Green Movement

[Diamond45]

If you could recycle the ballasts - or better yet - just use the same ballast over and over and just replace the bulb - then I'd give more creedence towards the CFLs. Until then - they're just as bad as regular incandescent bulbs.

 

[Kenneth R.]

I'd like to see the story. I have a feeling there's more to it than just that they broke a bulb. You'd have heard 100 stories all over the place by this point if that were the case.

The reason that CF's are considered eco-friendly is because they use 75% less electricity for the same result. The amount of mercury going into the environment is vastly less than if you took every CF bulb, used it for its entire lifespan, then broke it open and release the mercury directly into the environment. Most people seem to have no concept of how bad burning coal is...

Well my man, the sad fact is although I agree that coal is not a solution, if they don't use it on lighting, they'll find some other way to waste it on something else. Pessimistic perhaps, but true. It's not going to lighten the load by switching to CFL

 

[Chrisf]

Well my man, the sad fact is although I agree that coal is not a solution, if they don't use it on lighting, they'll find some other way to waste it on something else. Pessimistic perhaps, but true. It's not going to lighten the load by switching to CFL

What do you think they'll use it for? To put in stockings of the bad children at Chrisfmas?

Seriously, that's a hands-up-in-the-air kinda argument. There's nothing we can do, so why bother? I happen to believe that most problems can be solved or prevented. In this case, you have a clear way to lower a substantial part of your electric bill and make your house a little cooler in the summer. Someone else might be consuming more coal for some purpose, but in order to say there's no benefit to me using CF bulbs, you'd have to show that they're doing simply because I'm using less. Doesn't make much sense to me.

And I don't get the concern over ballasts. They're tiny. Is there some concern we're going to have landfills overflowing with these things? Really, with all the other stuff we waste, why the big concern about such a tiny thing?

And I'd like to see the link about someone needing to be hospitalized for mercury poisoning from a broken bulb. It sounds suspiciously like FUD to me, but I'll give some benefit of the doubt until I can read further.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Tunnessen WW Jr, McMahon KJ, Baser M (1987). "Acrodynia: exposure to mercury from fluorescent light bulbs". Pediatrics 79 (5): 786–9. PMID 3575038.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3575038
The diagnosis was mercury poisoning, and an investigation of his environment disclosed that he had been exposed to mercury from broken fluorescent light bulbs.

Wikipedia. Not cited. But you know what? All of the terms used are cited, and this really isn't research so much as the implications of technology as fact.
Quality of light: A phosphor emits light in a narrow frequency range, unlike an incandescent filament, which emits the full spectrum, though not all colors equally, of visible light. A mix of phosphors gives a good approximation of daylight or incandescent light can be reached. However, every extra phosphor added to the coating mix causes a loss of efficiency and increased cost. Good quality consumer CFLs use three or four phosphors to achieve a 'white' light with a Color Rendering Index (CRI) of around 80, where 100 represents the appearance of colors under daylight or a blackbody (depending on the correlated color temperature). Incandescent bulbs typically rate higher.

CPSC, Teng Fei Trading Inc. Announce Recall of Energy Saving Light Bulbs. U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission press release.
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml05/05005.html
Hazard: The base of the bulb is not flame-retardant, as required in the voluntary standard for this type of bulb. Electrical components in the bulb can overheat, posing a fire hazard.

Can CFLs interfere with electronic equipment? at ConsumerReports.org.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2007/11/cfl-problems.html
Most modern TVs, radios, cell phones, and remote controls rely on infrared light to send signals. It’s not common, but some electronic devices mistakenly interpret the infrared light emitted by CFLs as a signal, causing them to temporarily go kerflooey. [...] Our advice is that your friend not use CFLs in fixtures near her TVs, radios, remote controls, or cell phones. If interference occurs, she should move the CFLs away from the electronic equipment or plug the light fixture and the electronic device in different outlets.

Mercury - spills, disposal and site cleanup - what to do if a fluorescent light bulb breaks. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (2007-10-25).
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm#flourescent
[No quote, just commentary: wow, what a chore.]

Accommodation and Compliance Series: Employees with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/cfs.html
Migraine Headaches:
Provide task lighting
Eliminate fluorescent lighting

Working with Light Sensitivity
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/cgi-win/OrgQuery.exe?Sol400
Individuals who experience eye strain or fatigue may benefit from natural light. If it is not possible to situate the worker near a natural light source, alternative lighting may be an accommodation solution. Full Spectrum Lighting or Full Spectrum Light Filters (for covering fluorescent lighting) may reduce glare from overhead lights by simulating a natural light source and blocking ultraviolet rays.

Accommodation Ideas for Employees with Epilepsy.
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/epilepsy.html
Alternative Lighting: If the employee has photosensitivity epilepsy, or other sensitivity to light, s/he may experience seizures or headaches due to fluorescent lights or flickers from other lighting sources.
Replace fluorescent lights with full spectrum lighting
Turn off fluorescent lights

I could go on and on. You just don't have these problems with the good old incandescent bulb. It just uses more energy. Well, I'll take it.

 

[Pellaz]

BTW, I didn't realize how disruptive large-scale LED lights were for EM until today, when I was listening to AM radio at a traffic light with LED walk/don't walk signals. There was a LOT of interference and static when the LED "don't walk" array was blinking, reallly thick.

 

[kellsco]

My small input into this convo....

I saw this morning, my first propaganda commercial on this issue. Paul Reubens is doing it, saying switching will save our earth.

Also, on my way home last night, there is a lighting store I pass by-sells fixtures. On the sign out front, they had put that there were a fluorescent bulb recycler. Least I know where to take my used bulbs once I'm no longer given a choice on what I have to use.

 

[Diamond45]

Finally, a program is being started to recycle the CFL ballasts and bulbs!

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/may/23/na-few-recycling-options-for-cfls/

 

[Chrisf]

Ugh. Mega-FUD.

Tunnessen WW Jr, McMahon KJ, Baser M (1987). "Acrodynia: exposure to mercury from fluorescent light bulbs". Pediatrics 79 (5): 786–9. PMID 3575038.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3575038
The diagnosis was mercury poisoning, and an investigation of his environment disclosed that he had been exposed to mercury from broken fluorescent light bulbs.

How about the real story:

"If a fluorescent lamp is broken, mercury can contaminate the surrounding environment and poison its inhabitants. A 1987 report described a 23-month-old toddler hospitalized due to mercury poisoning traced to a carton of 8-foot fluorescent lamps that had broken. The glass was cleaned up and discarded, but the child often used the area for play."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_light_bulb#Disadvantages

This leads back to the reference you cite, but explains that it was:
1) not CFL's
2) a whole box of long tube fluorescents
3) one case a very long time ago

This does nothing to establish toxicity, nor does it do anything to represent what would happen if you were to break a single CFL. CFL's have how much mercury compared to even one tube bulb? 1/20th? So... pretty much as I suspected.

Wikipedia. Not cited. But you know what? All of the terms used are cited, and this really isn't research so much as the implications of technology as fact.
Quality of light: A phosphor emits light in a narrow frequency range, unlike an incandescent filament, which emits the full spectrum, though not all colors equally, of visible light. A mix of phosphors gives a good approximation of daylight or incandescent light can be reached. However, every extra phosphor added to the coating mix causes a loss of efficiency and increased cost. Good quality consumer CFLs use three or four phosphors to achieve a 'white' light with a Color Rendering Index (CRI) of around 80, where 100 represents the appearance of colors under daylight or a blackbody (depending on the correlated color temperature). Incandescent bulbs typically rate higher.

Err, you can find plenty of color temperatures to match whatever you find nice. In fact, you probably have more control than with an incandescent bulb. I've never had a problem with this, and it seems pretty minor to me.

CPSC, Teng Fei Trading Inc. Announce Recall of Energy Saving Light Bulbs. U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission press release.
http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml05/05005.html
Hazard: The base of the bulb is not flame-retardant, as required in the voluntary standard for this type of bulb. Electrical components in the bulb can overheat, posing a fire hazard.

Yeah... and this reflects on other brands how...? And how many fires start from people using halogen bulbs incorrectly?

Can CFLs interfere with electronic equipment? at ConsumerReports.org.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2007/11/cfl-problems.html
Most modern TVs, radios, cell phones, and remote controls rely on infrared light to send signals. It’s not common, but some electronic devices mistakenly interpret the infrared light emitted by CFLs as a signal, causing them to temporarily go kerflooey. [...] Our advice is that your friend not use CFLs in fixtures near her TVs, radios, remote controls, or cell phones. If interference occurs, she should move the CFLs away from the electronic equipment or plug the light fixture and the electronic device in different outlets.

Never seen this happen on any of my equipment. And the "interference" is strictly with the remote control.... probably on poorly made equipment. Don't forget that most electronics are sold in department stores, which are lit by what? Tube fluorescents.

Mercury - spills, disposal and site cleanup - what to do if a fluorescent light bulb breaks. U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (2007-10-25).
http://www.epa.gov/mercury/spills/index.htm#flourescent
[No quote, just commentary: wow, what a chore.]

Clean-up is somewhat more work. Basically, vent and don't vacuum. But the glass on those bulbs is thicker, so they break less easily than regular bulbs. Of course, you could be a little more careful... it's not that hard to not break bulbs.

Accommodation and Compliance Series: Employees with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/cfs.html
Migraine Headaches:
Provide task lighting
Eliminate fluorescent lighting

Working with Light Sensitivity
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/cgi-win/OrgQuery.exe?Sol400
Individuals who experience eye strain or fatigue may benefit from natural light. If it is not possible to situate the worker near a natural light source, alternative lighting may be an accommodation solution. Full Spectrum Lighting or Full Spectrum Light Filters (for covering fluorescent lighting) may reduce glare from overhead lights by simulating a natural light source and blocking ultraviolet rays.

Accommodation Ideas for Employees with Epilepsy.
http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/epilepsy.html
Alternative Lighting: If the employee has photosensitivity epilepsy, or other sensitivity to light, s/he may experience seizures or headaches due to fluorescent lights or flickers from other lighting sources.
Replace fluorescent lights with full spectrum lighting
Turn off fluorescent lights

I could go on and on. You just don't have these problems with the good old incandescent bulb. It just uses more energy. Well, I'll take it.

From my previous link:

The non-visible 100 Hz - 120 Hz flicker from fluorescent tubes powered by electromagnetic ballasts are associated with headaches and eyestrain. Individuals with high flicker fusion threshold are particularly affected by electromagnetic ballasts: their EEG alpha waves are markedly attenuated and they perform office tasks with greater speed and decreased accuracy. The problems are not observed with electronic ballasts.

Really, it sounds like these are all problems with old fluorescent tubes, and not modern CFL's. So, yeah, I've seen the "problems", and they're basically non-existent as far as I'm concerned. You can have any opinion you want, but it's misleading to offer these things up to others as some kind of massive deal-breaker.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Well you can explain away as you wish, if you're a fan I'm not going to stop you from buying them. Citing these and other problems, minor or not, I'll still keep buying incandescent as long as I am able, even if I have to buy them from some importer.

 

[Chrisf]

Well you can explain away as you wish, if you're a fan I'm not going to stop you from buying them.

Heh. Indeed. Sorry, didn't mean to explain away all that scare stuff and show there's nothing to be afraid of.

Citing these and other problems, minor or not, I'll still keep buying incandescent as long as I am able, even if I have to buy them from some importer.

Have at it. I figure I'm saving something like $150/year now. That's some CD money there.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Considering my electric bill is 28 to 32 dollars a month, I'm really not concerned with making my lighting less nice.

 

[skyrefuge]

and do not flicker at or at double mains frequency (imagine 60,120 times per second).

Neither do CFLs. They use electronic ballasts.

ADDED: Oh, and CFLs hum too.

No they don't. They use electronic ballasts.

And they interfere with radio frequency devices like TV remotes and stereos. Imagine how fucked American recording studios are going to be when this goes into effect.

It appears that you are confused by the difference between infrared receivers (which is what your later "interference" link is talking about) and radio frequency devices. I don't imagine infrared interference is a big issue in American recording studios.

Would you ever load up a studio with them? I'm curious if anyone has recording nightmares because of them or CFLs. The interferrence would be unmanageable.

So then what exactly is this "interference" you speak of? What is the source, the frequency range, and what is affected by it?

When I'm on the highway and an approaching car has those new LED or halogen bulbs, it blinds me even if they don't have high beams on.

I'd be quite surprised if you've ever seen a car with LED headlights, since I think only two models exist, and one is a $115,000 2008 Lexus hybrid, and the other is a 2008 Cadillac Escalade that isn't available yet.

A "halogen" bulb is simply a specific type of incandescent bulb, which, today is just the "normal" type of headlight that comes with all cars.

The ones that annoy you are High Intensity Discharge lamps, which are a completely independent lighting technology than incandescents, fluorescents, or LEDs.

For someone who knows so much about lighting, it's interesting how little you know about lighting.

Visual flicker is a problem but the bigger issue is electromagnetic interference, as I've stated a bunch of times now. People only seem to key in on the visual aspect.

Perhaps people are keying in on the visual aspect because:

1. You're the first person in the history of electronics to refer to electromagnetic interference (EMI) as "flicker".
2. The first several times you used the word "flicker", you were referring to visual flicker, and only later did you attempt to morph your claim into an EMI-based argument, perhaps once you figured out that there is nothing inherent in LED technology or physics that produces a visual flicker?

Still, I would like to hear you explain the mechanism by which LEDs create electromagnetic interference, because I can't figure that one out. And, feel free to explain visual flicker too, if you still think that is a problem!

I'm an EE too.

For real?

Neil

 

[Kenneth R.]

Heh, it seems it's hard to change minds that are already hardened. I should have known better coming into this forum. I grouped EMI with the visual flicker throughout my posts because the cause of both is the same property.

Oh, and yes, for real.

 

[Chrisf]

Heh, it seems it's hard to change minds that are already hardened. I should have known better coming into this forum. I grouped EMI with the visual flicker throughout my posts because the cause of both is the same property.

Oh, and yes, for real.

Ok, since you're so wrong on so many things that you've said, and shown no ability to do basic research, tell us what exactly your degree is and where you got it. Are you still in school? BSEE? Grad degree? Usually grad students have learned to do pretty decent basic research and not offer up references that disprove their own arguments (as you did with the "mercury poisoning" nonsense).

 

[RiffDaemon]

Hey, Electronic Engineer guys - can y'all recommend a fundamentals book? I'm getting my feet wet in building circuits, and I'd like a good book or two on the subject. Thanks!

 

[skyrefuge]

Heh, it seems it's hard to change minds that are already hardened.

How does me pointing out your factual errors lead you to conclude that my mind is "hardened"?

Check it out, this will probably blow YOUR hardened mind:

I'm one of the more "green" people you'll ever meet. I keep my heat low enough in Chicago that my gas bill is only ~$350/year, I rode my bicycle 1000 miles to ProgPower, etc.

However, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOUR CONCLUSIONS. Government mandating a move away from incandescent lights is stupid, I currently own no CFLs, and will attempt to avoid owning any for as long as I possibly can.

Agreeing with your conclusions doesn't preclude me from pointing out the factual and logical errors that led you to those conclusions, and vice versa. Spreading misinformation serves no one. Your arguments will be much more persuasive with people if they aren't obviously full of holes.

Neil

 

[Kenneth R.]

Stop being so hostile. You seem like a cool guy, the kind I'd get along well with. I'm not putting a 24/7 effort into presenting this point, so my 'research' consists of quick links. If they're shoddy, they're shoddy and I honestly don't care to do better for the purposes of this thread. I don't think those CFL lovers are going to be convinced even if I did spend more time on it. So whatev.

 

[Chrisf]

Stop being so hostile. You seem like a cool guy, the kind I'd get along well with. I'm not putting a 24/7 effort into presenting this point, so my 'research' consists of quick links. If they're shoddy, they're shoddy and I honestly don't care to do better for the purposes of this thread. I don't think those CFL lovers are going to be convinced even if I did spend more time on it. So whatev.

Heh, indeed.

 

[Kaosaur]

I rode my bicycle 1000 miles to ProgPower, etc.

Shit dude, that was you!? I read your tale of that a couple years ago and have been looking for it again ever since.

I want to do some long distance cycling and have some questions I might want to big you with.

 

[skyrefuge]

I want to do some long distance cycling and have some questions I might want to big you with.

Cool. I've done a couple more rides since then too, so definitely get in touch if you need some advice...it's hard to get me to stop blabbing about bike touring!

Neil