The downside of the Green Movement

[Kaosaur]

I'm not very concerned with visual flickering. I AM concerned with the other side effects of flicker - namely the interferrence. I'm surprised you'd prefer a bright LED over soft white incandescent. When I'm on the highway and an approaching car has those new LED or halogen bulbs, it blinds me even if they don't have high beams on. My eyes are very sensitive like yours, but I require low lighting with full spectrum - something with around 2000-3000k color temperature. Currently there's no LED or CFL that I know of that can operate at that standard.

I'm getting sick of hearing this flicker nonsense. You use one, demonstrate that it occurs and measure it and submit to public scrutiny (and not other peoples' experiences, your own). You're making an argument entirely based on speculation and screaming bloody murder about it.

Also, LED lighting for traffic lights and LED lighting for your home/office are completely different...the former is SUPPOSED to be eye-catching/mildly-irritating.

The horse has been dragged out and shot.

 

[mëtålspëd]

My eyes are very sensitive like yours, but I require low lighting with full spectrum - something with around 2000-3000k color temperature. Currently there's no LED or CFL that I know of that can operate at that standard.

"Full Spectrum" is generally 5500-6500K, with a CRI of 91+.

For reference:

Suppose one thing I neglected to mention previously... but the LEDs that we have designed can technically be considered Full Spectrum. It may be a year or more, but you WILL see this style on the retail market.

 

[Stingray11214]

The CFL bulbs are in heavy-duty use in Asia, especially the rural areas. When I was in the Philippines last year, EVERY room had a CFL bulb. I finally bit the bullet and got them for my house a year ago. Guess what? NONE of them have gone out, and my electric bill dropped by 15% from the same time last year with INCREASED usage of my lights. And, I get more light when I use them than with the regular bulbs.

I would love to see the LED bulbs in regular usage, though.

 

[Kenneth R.]

"Full Spectrum" is generally 5500-6500K, with a CRI of 91+.

For reference:
[graph]

Suppose one thing I neglected to mention previously... but the LEDs that we have designed can technically be considered Full Spectrum. It may be a year or more, but you WILL see this style on the retail market.

Color temperature and frequency of emission are related but different things. High CRI is great, but I don't want none of that 6000k stuff.

Kaosaur: I guess you've never really dealt with sensitive electronics. Flicker might be hogwash to you, but it's a big deal to me and others. And again, not the visual flicker. I don't care a hoot about that. I care about the interference.

 

[mëtålspëd]

Color temperature and frequency of emission are related but different things. High CRI is great, but I don't want none of that 6000k stuff.

Kaosaur: I guess you've never really dealt with sensitive electronics. Flicker might be hogwash to you, but it's a big deal to me and others. And again, not the visual flicker. I don't care a hoot about that. I care about the interference.

Perhaps if you had referenced FoE first, instead of the much more common color temperature...

I will not debate with an engineer. I leave my job at the office. I knew it was a bad idea to even join this thread. Consider my reading, and participation, ending here.

 

[Kenso]

just buy a fucking shitload of incandescent bulbs to have for years to come

 

[Kenneth R.]

that's a great plan.

metalsped, I've enjoyed your contributions man. It's a good discussion.

 

[Diamond45]

The CFL bulbs are in heavy-duty use in Asia, especially the rural areas. When I was in the Philippines last year, EVERY room had a CFL bulb. I finally bit the bullet and got them for my house a year ago. Guess what? NONE of them have gone out, and my electric bill dropped by 15% from the same time last year with INCREASED usage of my lights. And, I get more light when I use them than with the regular bulbs.

There is no doubt that CFLs are more efficient. But I guess you never use a shortwave radio? Those things kill reception!

And yes, they will eventually go out. I've been to hotel rooms where I've had to ask them to replace them since they did go completely out. Like any light, they will eventually "burn out". Even LEDs have a life span - it is just a very LONG life!

 

[Kenneth R.]

When CFLs burn out, depending on the part that breaks, they can be hazardous to your health. (UV or mercury). I'm not surprised they're used in rural asia as they tend to be very cost effective, not concerned with recycle-ability, or hazardous chemicals. (The whole lead paint outcry for example). They are more efficient though. I'm hoping for improved incandesncent bulbs (a team is working on it) or some new form of lighting technology. LEDs could be successful for a majority of applications with a bit more development.

 

[Kaosaur]

Kaosaur: I guess you've never really dealt with sensitive electronics. Flicker might be hogwash to you, but it's a big deal to me and others. And again, not the visual flicker. I don't care a hoot about that. I care about the interference.

I've started building circuits when I was 5 and have been building my own electronic components and working with microcontrollers for over a decade now.

 

[kashford]

Actually, Bush already signed a trade agreement with Brasil, for the import of ethanol. Of course, that one flew under the media radar.

Ya, but the actual details of the bill are this: "United States and Brazil, which together produce almost70% of the world’s ethanol, signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) topromote greater cooperation on ethanol and other biofuels in the WesternHemisphere. The countries agreed to (1) advance research and developmentbilaterally, (2) help build domestic biofuels industries in third countries, and (3) workmultilaterally to advance the global development of biofuels."

Also, there is a proposed bilateral/multilateral trade agreement with the Americas that is being pushed but little to no action on it has really been taken. Besides the EU, the US subsidizes its farmers to an outrageous extent still because they have massive lobbying groups in D.C.

PDF: http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cach...Brazil&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=safari

 

[Chrisf]

I have them throughout most of the house. You can easily control color temp by ordering whatever you want online. They last many times longer than incandescents, which takes care of the cost difference.

If you can see flicker, you bought shitty bulbs. Seriously. I've never seen that at all.

I do know that if I don't run electric heaters, my electric bill is now something like $30/month. That's with a computer on all day, a normal fridge, etc.

The mercury in the bulbs is tiny. Unless your electricity is 100% from non-coal, you're putting a lot more mercury in the environment by using 4x the electricity from regular bulbs. You can take CF's back for free recycling to lots of places, so the mercury poses no threat and can be reused anyway.


LED's are fine, but show me a 100-watt equivalent for a reasonable price.

Heh... the amount of wrong things on the inter-tubes is breathtaking...

 

[Kenneth R.]

Chrisf, people have been hospitalized because of mercury from broken CFLs. Show me where you can recycle these things. The ballasts are not recycleable. They might "take" them, but I doubt they disassemble and safely reuse the parts.

Visual flicker is a problem but the bigger issue is electromagnetic interference, as I've stated a bunch of times now. People only seem to key in on the visual aspect.

Kaosaur, given your experience then I am even more surprised by your illogical arguments.

The amount of wrong things on the internet is indeed breathtaking.

 

[Evil Penguin]

Show me where you can recycle these things.

My local hardware store will recycle them for free.

 

[Kaosaur]

Kaosaur, given your experience then I am even more surprised by your illogical arguments.

I've tolerated your button pushing up to this point but...seriously dude, go fuck yourself.

Your speculation and random statements without links to corroborate (and you yourself don't use the bulbs...) is beyond irritating. Sources or shut the hell up, please.
I'm done with this idiotic thread.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Way to be.

Penguin, ask them what they do with the ballasts. I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Chrisf]

Err, I don't care what they do with the ballasts...? Should I? The mercury is the real hazard, and they probably do ship them off to a factory for reuse, since it's generally much cheaper to take something highly processed like mercury in an already pure form than to extract it from nature from scratch.

Someone went to the hospital from a broken CF bulb? Why? The amount per bulb is about equal to this ======> .

Yeah, that one dot. Unless they drank it directly, I can't believe they would have any noticeable effects. Of course you don't want to have ANY unneeded mercury in you, so if you do break one, vent the place by opening a window for an hour, and pick up the broken pieces but don't use a vacuum. And that's it. The media horror stories are a joke, and probably so is the part about someone needing to go to the hospital.


I have CF's throughout the house. There's no flicker, there's no TV or stereo interference, and it has no effect on my wireless network.

I can only conclude that most of the so-called negatives that people are talking about here are pure ignorance.

I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I've yet to see anything to see anything to back these claims up...

 

[Kenneth R.]

A CFL broke in the room and even after they cleaned it up, a kid had to go to the hospital for mercury poisoning. I can link you the story if you care. They might have been dumb enough not to open the windows, but then, should that really be a requirement for lighting? The ballasts aren't recycleable so I don't see how that makes them so ecofriendly. Really, the only advantage of CFLs are the supposed longer life and the lower electricity usage. But as far as actual environmental impact, they're a disaster waiting to happen. If you require me to cite sources I will, I just thought that by presenting the situation the rest would follow by common sense.

I won't stop you from using and liking CFLs, (how could I anyway?) but I certainly won't use them and I'd like people to know what they're getting into, both positively and negatively, and that's why I started this thread.

 

[freakchylde]

Also, there is a proposed bilateral/multilateral trade agreement with the Americas that is being pushed but little to no action on it has really been taken. Besides the EU, the US subsidizes its farmers to an outrageous extent still because they have massive lobbying groups in D.C.

Yeah, vaguely mentioned that. Subsidies are fine and dandy, if there's an overabundance, but we've subsidied ourselves out of a food supply. And I don't see that changing, anytime soon.

 

[Chrisf]

A CFL broke in the room and even after they cleaned it up, a kid had to go to the hospital for mercury poisoning. I can link you the story if you care. They might have been dumb enough not to open the windows, but then, should that really be a requirement for lighting? The ballasts aren't recycleable so I don't see how that makes them so ecofriendly. Really, the only advantage of CFLs are the supposed longer life and the lower electricity usage. But as far as actual environmental impact, they're a disaster waiting to happen. If you require me to cite sources I will, I just thought that by presenting the situation the rest would follow by common sense.

I'd like to see the story. I have a feeling there's more to it than just that they broke a bulb. You'd have heard 100 stories all over the place by this point if that were the case.

The reason that CF's are considered eco-friendly is because they use 75% less electricity for the same result. The amount of mercury going into the environment is vastly less than if you took every CF bulb, used it for its entire lifespan, then broke it open and release the mercury directly into the environment. Most people seem to have no concept of how bad burning coal is...