The killings continue...

[Vossyrus]

Is it just me or are more and more ridiculous religions rising nowadays. To me, it just seems trendy to devote your time to something that's 'different'. And no offense, but to pray to/worship Odin? I mean its just as 'authentic' as the next religion/beliefs but I just don't know how something like that is at all beneficial.

I am 100% atheist, and Satanism is the only other mindset that I am on agreeable terms with. I will never call myself a Satanist because I do not believe it is say accurate if it is strictly through metaphorical and abstract means and of course, I dislike many people who do not have the knowledge to understand anything. (ie. rebellious teens who read the Satanic Bible because they dislike Christianity and think its 'cool'). I also strongly dislike so-called Wiccans. I went to highschool, and this nowadays seems to be such a big trend. Seriously, I don't know how many 'Witchcraft for teens' or 'Wiccan' books I've seen in small shops...

 

[Pessimism]

Buddhism = as well imo, total respect to Buddhists

Depends on the sect imo.

 

[Hubster]

Is it just me or are more and more ridiculous religions rising nowadays. To me, it just seems trendy to devote your time to something that's 'different'. And no offense, but to pray to/worship Odin? I mean its just as 'authentic' as the next religion/beliefs but I just don't know how something like that is at all beneficial.

I am 100% atheist, and Satanism is the only other mindset that I am on agreeable terms with. I will never call myself a Satanist because I do not believe it is say accurate if it is strictly through metaphorical and abstract means and of course, I dislike many people who do not have the knowledge to understand anything. (ie. rebellious teens who read the Satanic Bible because they dislike Christianity and think its 'cool'). I also strongly dislike so-called Wiccans. I went to highschool, and this nowadays seems to be such a big trend. Seriously, I don't know how many 'Witchcraft for teens' or 'Wiccan' books I've seen in small shops...

True Pagan followers know no trend, and this includes Wiccans (who I have a very high respect for). Real Wiccans out there do not practice for the sake of doing something different, they do so because they truly believe in their connection to the earth. I am not Wiccan, but I do hold their beliefs in high regard.

I find that with Odinism and Asatru followers, their cultural heritage is of great importance to their faiths (as it is with Hinduism for example). There are some religions where being indigenous to the faith's geographical beginnings are important, or rather paramount to its foundation and core beliefs... Odinism and Asatru definitely fall into this.

This why I find people who don't live in these areas, that apparently follow these faiths, to be well... just totally tryhard

For example, it's like ME claiming to have an affinity to Asatru/Odinism. Sure, I might feel an affinity to its beliefs, but in the real world I'm not Nordic/Scandic, I'm Indian. My spiritual ties to the world by birth are not to the Nordic countries. So sure, I can respect that faith, but there's no point in me trying to be connected to it, I'm a damned camel herder ffs!

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Christians actually believe that it's an undeniable truth that God exists. They 'know' he exists. Do you believe that Odin exists? You must, or else it would be retarded to pray to him.

Of course it sounds retarded to you. If he actually gets something out of it, then why not do it?

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Is it just me or are more and more ridiculous religions rising nowadays. To me, it just seems trendy to devote your time to something that's 'different'. And no offense, but to pray to/worship Odin? I mean its just as 'authentic' as the next religion/beliefs but I just don't know how something like that is at all beneficial.

I am 100% atheist, and Satanism is the only other mindset that I am on agreeable terms with. I will never call myself a Satanist because I do not believe it is say accurate if it is strictly through metaphorical and abstract means and of course, I dislike many people who do not have the knowledge to understand anything. (ie. rebellious teens who read the Satanic Bible because they dislike Christianity and think its 'cool'). I also strongly dislike so-called Wiccans. I went to highschool, and this nowadays seems to be such a big trend. Seriously, I don't know how many 'Witchcraft for teens' or 'Wiccan' books I've seen in small shops...

First off, Ars, you do realise that atheism is a faith, right? I don't see what makes you 100% sure about it when you are unable to prove that there is no god.

That aside, here's my take on religion, etc.:

While this may sound naive, I think spirituality is an important thing for everyone to look for in his/her life. Most faiths out there may seem pretty retarded, but it can definitely be beneficial to have one. Doesn't it suck to go through life thinking that there's no purpose for any of us to be here, and no significance in anything we do? Sure, you can accept this on the grounds that it's merely our best guess based on logic, but is living a logical life really more important than living a meaningful life?

I don't see myself adopting any spiritual beliefs anytime soon, but I do plan on trying periodically. It will probably be a system I come up with myself - my own mythology, my own laws, and my own rituals. I'd prefer that to trying to get into someone else's 'fantasy'.

 

[CAIRATH]

Doesn't it suck to go through life thinking that there's no purpose for any of us to be here, and no significance in anything we do? Sure, you can accept this on the grounds that it's merely our best guess based on logic, but is living a logical life really more important than living a meaningful life?

Does the fact that it supposedly 'sucks' (your words, not mine) make it any more likely that there is an inherent purpose to life and a reason why we are here, let alone any more likely that there is some kind of deity presiding over us?

If you think about it, it doesn't.

That's like saying that you should delude yourself into thinking you are incredibly rich because "doesn't it suck to go through life without having any money?"

If you believe it you believe it, if you don't then you don't. If you just start forcing yourself to believe things (like say the idea that your life on earth is merely temporary and afterwards you will meet all your friends and family again in a better place) simply because you'd like them to be true then how genuine is that belief really? To a cynical observer it would seem like all you're doing then is simply deluding yourself into a fabricated reality that you like better than the one you can actually perceive with the combination of your senses and logic.

That's not to say that I find all spirituality pointless. But I do believe there are ways to be spiritual that do not require you to join one of the organized religions and subscribe to their dogmatic view of reality. And there are ways that do not require you to fabricate ridiculously specific ideas about reality of which there is no proof whatsoever and that when looking at the total permutations of all the things that could possibly be true in this universe, are much more likely to infact be false.

An example of such a spiritual experience would for instance be to go to a nice deserted place in the outdoors and simply stand in awe of the beauty of nature. An experience that most people who grow up in big cities are completely unfamiliar with it seems.

And if there was infact a god who created all this stuff then wouldn't he be much happier if people would occasionally look at a flower or a big old tree and think "Wow, that is really beautiful" than with someone who talks to him three times a day about all the problems they're having in their life? I know which one I'd prefer!

 

[Hubster]

^ Great posts, both of you. I think you've both raised some really cool points there.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

Alright - let's go. *rolls up sleeves*

Does the fact that it supposedly 'sucks' (your words, not mine) make it any more likely that there is an inherent purpose to life and a reason why we are here, let alone any more likely that there is some kind of deity presiding over us?

If you think about it, it doesn't.

Yeah, I have thought about this, and I am well aware that it doesn't. I wasn't saying that there is an inherent purpose to life. I was suggesting that the quality of one's life is better if one believes there to be such meaning.

If you believe it you believe it, if you don't then you don't. If you just start forcing yourself to believe things (like say the idea that your life on earth is merely temporary and afterwards you will meet all your friends and family again in a better place) simply because you'd like them to be true then how genuine is that belief really? To a cynical observer it would seem like all you're doing then is simply deluding yourself into a fabricated reality that you like better than the one you can actually perceive with the combination of your senses and logic.

Yes, I know that spiritual beliefs often involve self-delusion. Whether this is an acceptable kind of spirituality, I'm not sure. That's why it's so hard for me to get into it. But just because it's self-delusion doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

That's not to say that I find all spirituality pointless. But I do believe there are ways to be spiritual that do not require you to join one of the organized religions and subscribe to their dogmatic view of reality. And there are ways that do not require you to fabricate ridiculously specific ideas about reality of which there is no proof whatsoever and that when looking at the total permutations of all the things that could possibly be true in this universe, are much more likely to infact be false.

An example of such a spiritual experience would for instance be to go to a nice deserted place in the outdoors and simply stand in awe of the beauty of nature. An experience that most people who grow up in big cities are completely unfamiliar with it seems.

In moving away from disingenuous beliefs, you seem to be collapsing into disingenuous spirituality. Aesthetic appreciation is not ultimately going to give you peace of mind about your place in the universe. While it may be an important component of spirituality, it alone can't replace it.

At any rate, there's plenty of evidence out there that holding spiritual beliefs does not 'make you illogical'. Most of the important pre-1900s scientists were religious, and, if I recall correctly, a pretty big percentage of today's scientists are also religious. Naturally, these scientists usually take a more liberal interpretation of their holy texts.

So... even if spirituality involves self-delusion, it's not actually that big a danger to logic if done properly. And the potential benefits of it, in my view, do not justify getting caught up over the self-delusion aspect.

 

[Hubster]

If spirituality gives a person direction and stability, what harm can it do? I think it's really important for people to have some kind of spiritual appreciation. The metaphysical has been a part of us since the dawn of time...

 

[CAIRATH]

If spirituality gives a person direction and stability, what harm can it do?

I think organized religion does plenty of harm. And unfortunately that seems to be the spiritual outlet that the vast majority of the people on this planet choose.

I think it's really important for people to have some kind of spiritual appreciation. The metaphysical has been a part of us since the dawn of time...

I agree with this. And I think it is a common misconception that people who call themselves atheists (as I do) are people who have no appreciation for the spiritual and the metaphysical. As I said I believe there are ways to be spiritual that do not require you to form very specific ideas about anything. Infact a lot of Buddhist philosophy is about exactly that, simply observing reality as it is (for instance through deep meditation). For some people that can be a tremendously spiritual experience and it is also a more private one that does not infringe on the freedoms of fellow human beings in any way.

 

[Hubster]

I have known only one true atheist. He was a completely materialistic and capitalistic bastard.

Tell me, define your atheism. What bonds you to it? What is your experience of it, how does it exist for you, how do you exist within it?

 

[Vossyrus]

First off, Ars, you do realise that atheism is a faith, right? I don't see what makes you 100% sure about it when you are unable to prove that there is no god.

A faith as in a strong, confident belief yes. And to an atheist there is no god, period. You are not an atheist if you're only 98% sure.

Doesn't it suck to go through life thinking that there's no purpose for any of us to be here, and no significance in anything we do? Sure, you can accept this on the grounds that it's merely our best guess based on logic, but is living a logical life really more important than living a meaningful life?

I see what you're saying but....why must you feel like you have a defined/set purpose in life prior to your own birth? This is one of those things where it is all a matter of perspective. I don't think anyone has a real purpose to their existence - It is what you make of it, or decide it will be. If I wanted I could go and impregnate 50 women to prove my point, because I don't believe that each one of those children would have any purpose to life other than being the result of a foolish person - or I could not do it and they wouldn't exist and without purpose just the same. People determine what their 'purpose' in life is as their life progresses. I believe that people place relgion to such a high regard that it runs their life, so no, I don't belive that being an atheist will hinder your life's potential or whatever you want to call it, 'purpose'.

 

[skeptik]

I've had this argument way too many times, I don't have the energy to jump into right now, bit I will say this to vihris-gari: No, it DOESN'T suck to know that there is no meaning or purpose to life. In fact, I prefer it that way. And 'you can't disprove the existence of a flying spaghetti monster' and all of that crap. There's not a single valid piece of evidence to suggest that there is any sort of higher power whatsoever. Religion is a byproduct of ancient man's curiosity and need to explain the world around him. It's an antiquated relic of our primitive ways of old and nothing more.

 

[Vossyrus]

^ agreed.

I've always found that religion was once the 'science' of a few thousand years ago, but today, it seems like it is nothing more than a self-illusion or a false hope. One could easily do the same and live in a complete fictional world promising themself nothing but great things once they pass on and to some this would eliminate any fear of death, or even justify a death (its why religion is so prevalent in memorials and funerals etc). But I don't see how doing so would serve any reason other than to provide a short-term satisfaction in convincing yourself that you actually mean something - because human nature suggests that everyone only wants to feel needed, don't they? So I don't think life has or needs a purpose, and its not a bad thing if your life doesn't have one.

 

[zabu of nΩd]

As far as the atheism/agnosticism debate goes: since atheism basically equates to taking "likely to be true" and converting it into "true", I will never be able to accept it. There's no rational explanation for the origin of the universe, so I don't see how you can pretend to have knowledge about it and still call yourself rational.

As far as spiritual beliefs, I think we can all agree that it's up to an individual to 'fabricate' a purpose for himself if he wishes to. Sure, you can live your life acknowledging that there is no purpose to it, if you think it's that important to be perfectly rational. While it may all just be a matter of taste, it appears to me that spirituality offers more potential for a satisfying life than perfect rationality does.

 

[Divine Victim]

Yawn.

 

[Vossyrus]

As far as the atheism/agnosticism debate goes: since atheism basically equates to taking "likely to be true" and converting it into "true", I will never be able to accept it. There's no rational explanation for the origin of the universe, so I don't see how you can pretend to have knowledge about it and still call yourself rational.

As far as spiritual beliefs, I think we can all agree that it's up to an individual to 'fabricate' a purpose for himself if he wishes to. Sure, you can live your life acknowledging that there is no purpose to it, if you think it's that important to be perfectly rational. While it may all just be a matter of taste, it appears to me that spirituality offers more potential for a satisfying life than perfect rationality does.

As I have pointed out before and Necuratul has, I could easily say "I can fly to the moon and back in exactly 3.001 seconds and maybe I can't prove it but you can't disprove it, so it's still true" - that argument holds nothing. There is always more onus to prove something than to disprove it so I don't feel I need to prove the non-existence of something since that is just contradictory.

I support science because while maybe they haven't found all the answers, at least they approach things with the mindset of learning, progressing and moving forward correcting mistakes and whatnot, rather than saying "everything is how it is, how it was, and how it always will be" and such the mentality of many religious groups like Christians etc.

I find it stunning how many can reject the evolution theory but yet: consider the birth of a child and how one shapes from being almost nothing into a full-grown human being who can talk, walk, think etc. Is this not evolution of sorts? Yet saying animals share common ancestors is ridiculous? People know have common knowledge on how this works yet in greater specific detail, but if you were tell someone this a few thousand years ago it would sound absolutely ridiculous. Also how can one accept all other scientific advancements and theories but only deny those regarding evolution??

 

[Unfaithfully Metalhead]

gee guys.. i love the debate about religion and all but it has nothing to do with the title of this thread and the story... can someone give their opinions on the killing other then Doden whose opinion I already know and if he gave his again would drage for pages and pages including mine lol ..

 

[The Heartbreak Kid]

Killing is wrong. Unless whites commit them.

 

[Vossyrus]

gee guys.. i love the debate about religion and all but it has nothing to do with the title of this thread and the story... can someone give their opinions on the killing other then Doden whose opinion I already know and if he gave his again would drage for pages and pages including mine lol ..

sorry, my pro-atheist rant