The Magic of Words

[Demiurge]

SO wouldn't something that gets results be the real deal?

Not necessarily. The model underlying a method may be false, but the method may get results anyway. It is one thing to say that a technique works and another to say that it works for a particular reason, and while the two sometimes go together, they need not.

 

[Silver Incubus]

Not necessarily. The model underlying a method may be false, but the method may get results anyway. It is one thing to say that a technique works and another to say that it works for a particular reason, and while the two sometimes go together, they need not.

Alright good, then I will say it this way. NLP appears to work for particular reasons. Those reasons being to many to speak of and to put down, but it is for you to discover , and you might not think it matters, at all, and it doesn't matter to me if it does.

Some evidence of its power can be seen in any of Richard Bandlers videos, or the Magician Derren Browns(BBC) uses of NLP, alongside with magic tricks and suggestion.
Just watch Derren Browns documentry Messiah, he goes around and gains the support of many religious types (some of which you claim I adhere to their beliefs)
Chirstians - Able to convert with touch(he does it to everyone in the room)
Alien- Senses their medical history(aka cold reading)
Spiritualist(real cold reading like Jon Edwards),
Psychics -Mind Reading from the other room
New age - dream recording device

(I was going to put a link to a derren brown thing where he convinces someone through NLP that he really wanted a BMX bike for his birthday and not a leather jacket as he wrote down a week before and sealed in a envelope.
It then shows how he did it. But Youtube is down right now for updates)

 

[Demiurge]

It is important to realize that a performer's act for a television program did not occur in a rigorously controlled setting with the possibility for trickery minimized or eliminated. Actually, it has occurred in a setting which could be highly conducive to clever deception. If someone claims that what they're doing is legitimate(brilliant usage of human psychology) and not skillful magic, then he needs to reproduce it in a scientific environment.

I think you may find this article interesting: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

 

[Silver Incubus]

It is important to realize that a performer's act for a television program did not occur in a rigorously controlled setting with the possibility for trickery minimized or eliminated. Actually, it has occurred in a setting which could be highly conducive to clever deception. If someone claims that what they're doing is legitimate(brilliant usage of human psychology) and not skillful magic, then he needs to reproduce it in a scientific environment.

I think you may find this article interesting: http://www.simonsingh.net/Derren_Brown_Article.html

Yes an interesting read, did you happen to see the FAQ at the bottom?

I know magic as I have learned some tricks in my life, and indeed some of the things he does is clasified as mentalist tricks, but some of those tricks involve suggestion and hypnotism. That guys is right about most of the things he put on there and it is obvious that Derren Brown does magic, but the example I was giving was about the BMX bike. That is a great example of the kinds of things NLP is. Or if you have seen the one where he uses NLP to turn invisible to the other person(through imbedded suggestions). http://www.compfused.com/directlink/3599/ this is what is called a Negative Hallucination, like not seeing the keys on the table (as he anchors to the guy though touch and voice modulation if you pay attention to that)

I will guess and say that you don't know what hypnotic language patterns are. Or even better, you might believe that Hypnotism doesn't exist?
I know that I can put people into Trances and do some Deep trance things like olfactory and kinesthetic hallucinations. (I can make sober people drunk through hypnosis as one example and actually I made a drunk person sober.)

 

[Demiurge]

Yes an interesting read, did you happen to see the FAQ at the bottom?

Yes.

I know magic as I have learned some tricks in my life, and indeed some of the things he does is clasified as mentalist tricks, but some of those tricks involve suggestion and hypnotism. That guys is right about most of the things he put on there and it is obvious that Derren Brown does magic, but the example I was giving was about the BMX bike. That is a great example of the kinds of things NLP is. Or if you have seen the one where he uses NLP to turn invisible to the other person(through imbedded suggestions). http://www.compfused.com/directlink/3599/ this is what is called a Negative Hallucination, like not seeing the keys on the table (as he anchors to the guy though touch and voice modulation if you pay attention to that

The guy who wrote the article has raised enough doubt for me, a layperson, to doubt everything. You see, when someone performs magic tricks, they all look "real" to me and I don't know how he pulled the trick most of the time. Then when they are explained to me like on that TV special I watched a few times as a child, it becomes clear, of course. The point is that a magician you can hire to do a children's show does things that I cannot explain. This Derren Brown fellow represented himself to be using psychological manipulation when he was really using standard techniques in any skilled magician's repertoire. Now you tell me that this is the real deal, but the other stuff he said was expert psychology wasn't. Even if I were a fairly trusting person without a skeptical nature, if I had a rational bone in my body, I would be dubious and dubious I am. Like I said, do it in a controlled setting and I'll believe it.

I will guess and say that you don't know what hypnotic language patterns are. Or even better, you might believe that Hypnotism doesn't exist?
I know that I can put people into Trances and do some Deep trance things like olfactory and kinesthetic hallucinations. (I can make sober people drunk through hypnosis as one example and actually I made a drunk person sober.)

I suspect that it is little more that submissiveness to an authority figure. "Hypnotism" involves roles that both participants are familiar with and they play their parts. Some people are unwilling to go along and that is why not everyone is receptive. Many humans are very willing to act in the way they think their context dictates.

 

[Demiurge]

I'm not sure you realize how big this would be if it were exactly as represented. If a man could convert non-believers to a religion by touching them in an experiment, he would be on the cover of every publication in the modern world by tomorrow. I would not have had to run a search for "Derren Brown" to find out who this guy was. This would be one of the greatest discoveries in all of our species' histories and certainly the greatest in psychology. It's not, though. It's some kind of trick.

Also, the article astutely pointed out why he would adopt this strategy rather than being a standard performance magician. This way, he doesn't have to compete with them on a level field. Even if his tricks aren't as spectacular, they are real. I'm mentioning this for readers who don't care enough to read the article.

 

[Silver Incubus]

I understand you skeptism when dealing with Magicians because they are indeed the masters of deception when it comes to their tricks. Derren Brown is only using elements of NLP to help with his illusions but that invisible man thing and this BMX bike one( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg ) are examples of using NLP( anchoring, both physicially and tonally) to get the desired outcome. Once you understand how and why it works it seems almost to obvious, because the things he does, we all already do in our lives, its just that we are not systematic about it and therefore not as effective. This is another good example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyQjr1YL0zg

For that convert thing, I will go through and explain how he does it. First I am sure before he has them already going into a trance through imbedded comands much like the BMX thing but more towards actually putting them into a trance and not putting the BMX there. Then while talking about god and religion he anchors the space(ie hand movement or head movement and tonally) then when touches the first girl he has chosen her specifically because she is the the most hypnotized. With some practice I could do the same thing. as a note, he puts all their beliefs back afterwards.

Here ya go, Richard doing the belief change(from a video that is pretty old, he is much quicker and better at it now, much more sublte like the way Derren Brown uses it, but this is obviously a demostration that is suppose to be a little more over the top so they can learn it.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXNjvZf4o4A&mode=related&search=

 

[judas69]

Subtle influences and cues over the longterm may infact inspire certain ideas from certain types of people, I'll give you that much, but I completely doubt that you could, especially in such an extremely short period of time, change the mind of a person so absolutely and against his will, erase part of his memory in the process just by bringing it up, and have the effects of which last long enough after the show to interview the guy and still have him dumbfounded.

It's a trick, and he's using NLP as a basis to make it more believable.

I will add that the unconscious mind has a remarkable ability of picking out information that we, on a conscious level, are utterly oblivious to. As silver alluded to in another thread, and what I do agree with, is that genius in some or all cases may infact be the result of a stronger, more intimite relationship to, and thus a greater degree of influence by, your unconscious mind. If for example, if I flipped a card with a number inscribed on it infront of you, fast enough that you could not pick it up consciously, your unconscious mind will eventually piece together the information and relay it to the conscious mind, at which point you would have the number.

Believe me, we need the help, especially in a world that exists only to us as a mass of information. It is not a far jump in reason at all to accept that our unconscious mind is much more powerful than our conscious mind; it clearly has to be, unless you feel your conscious mind is "just along for the ride" so to speak and thus, this distinction is unnecessary.

All that said, I still feel the unconscious mind is like a dumb, though extremely strong, mut. You have to spend a lot of time training and conditioning to get any lasting controlled effect or response; something I don't feel could happen in under 2 minutes in any normal person.

 

[Silver Incubus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjvTpA8Eago

Derren Brown doing the conversion touch to some non believers
Heres a clip i made from the documentry, The conversion touch

 

[Silver Incubus]

Subtle influences and cues over the longterm may infact inspire certain ideas from certain types of people, I'll give you that much, but I completely doubt that you could, especially in such an extremely short period of time, change the mind of a person so absolutely and against his will, erase part of his memory in the process just by bringing it up, and have the effects of which last long enough after the show to interview the guy and still have him dumbfounded.

It's a trick, and he's using NLP as a basis to make it more believable.

I will add that the unconscious mind has a remarkable ability to pick out information that we, on a conscious level, are utterly oblivious to. As silver alluded to in another thread, and what I do agree with, is that genius in some or all cases may infact be the result of a stronger, more intimite relationship to the degree of influence by your unconscious mind. If for example, if I flipped a card with a number inscribed on it infront of you, fast enough that you could not pick it up consciously, your unconscious mind will eventually piece together the information and relay it to the conscious mind and you then would know the number.

Believe me, we need the help, especially in a world that exists only to us as a mass of information. It is not a far jump in reason at all to accept that our unconscious mind is much more powerful then our conscious mind; it clearly has to be, less you feel your conscious mind is "just along for the ride" so to speak and thus, this distinction is unnecessary.

Well that is the thing about NLP. It bypasses your conscious mind and goes straight to the unconscious. That is why that bike thing works. He said B M X and always maked it out in speech. This is not picked up consciously but it is unconsciously, and the string of maked out speech creates a pattern that your unconscious mind picks up and presents to you in your conscious awareness. you should really read one of Richards books, it is totally explained in much better detail then I can summerize here. I am not saying you should believe only what I say, nor that the evidence here must convince you. It is only as subjective as experiece. I know that it actually works because I can do it, and for me, that is evidence enough that it actually works. Test it for yourself and you might be pleasently suprised.

 

[judas69]

By the way, I added a few lines in my previous reply there so, those of you who haven't read it yet, don't read the quoted reply.

ERASE YOUR MINDS NOW!!

The bottom line is, just because I can say something, or the unconscious mind could pick it up, does not give it a justification to change anything. If this were the case, we'd have a lot of trouble on our hands.

ERASE YOUR MINDS NOW!!

 

[Silver Incubus]

By the way, I added a few lines in my previous reply there so, those of you who haven't read it yet, don't read the quoted reply.

ERASE YOUR MINDS NOW!!

The bottom line is, just because I can say something, or the unconscious mind could pick it up, does not give it a justification to change anything. If this were the case, we'd have a lot of trouble on our hands.

ERASE YOUR MINDS NOW!!

Did you know that you are a kinethestically orientated person?
How would I know? well

some examples: "Pick it up" "on our hands" "Picking out information" "which point" "It is not a far jump" "you feel your conscious mind" "just along for the ride" "extremely strong" "spend a lot of time training and conditioning"
"something I don't feel could happen in under 2 minutes in any normal person."

SO if I was to use nlp on you, I would simply talk to you in your primary language of kinesthetics.
Something like: I know that it may feel odd to you that something that seems out of your reach could actually exist, but like an hand on your shoulder from a reassuring friend, I can guarentee that when you said Believe me, at the begining of a paragraph, you were already trying to influence people at an unconscious level. And I know that if I asked you to remember an event in your life, you more then likely would look down first or down to your right(or left depending on your handedness) because you are accessing your kinesthetic senses in your memory. At that moment that you remember I could anchor that memory in any way I see fit, and every time I utilized that anchor, you would remember that same memory. You know "the look" you would have noticed from one of your parents that said nonverbally "Your in trouble if you keep doing that!"? well that look is as much of an anchor as everything else you are conditioned to respond to. I could make it so that when you saw that face the next time, you would burst out laughing instead. Behaviour is mallable and changeable, but it is our conscious minds that get in the way. But don't believe me at all.

 

[judas69]

I could see NLP having some merit in principle, though I again would not go so far as to say the intensity shown in the video is at all realistic. Most people in that same situation would take a figurative step back, having noticed all of the oddities in the hosts behaviour, and this never happened with the guy. It did appear like he was transfixed to a degree, and I'm not sure NLP has anything to do with such a state, though I really don't know much about it to be honest.

For myself, I have noticed for along time how I sometimes act differently around different people. Person A I might be more reserved around than person B, and for awhile I thought perhaps it was psychological, situational, having more to do with those experiences I had around that person, or my perception of them and their expectation wrt my own behaviour than anything, and this I'm sure plays into that. However, over time I quickly realized that I go so far as to actually steal other peoples manourisms, vocab and expressions, completely unconsciously, and I think everyone does this to a degree without realizing this. Even now, I sometimes laugh the same way as a friend of mine does, which is like really terrible (it really is a bad laugh) and honestly regret leeching it, but it's there and I somehow integrated it into my own behaviour.

Continuing in this vein, I think this may be a contributing reason why many people in the past have considered me easy to get along with, though I know when females say that it's likely for other reasons, and of course, I am pretty laid back so this all should be considered. However, having picked up these behavour patterns from people I socialize with, I'm sure they do find it easier to speak with me, to me and understand me if I'm using a similar verbal and non-verbal set they do, as people tend to like that which they can relate to (music, movies etc). Insofar as that goes, I could see at least on a very superficial level how this may infact "work", but again, unless there is a trust, unless there is that time to observe and know how to relate, unless there is a wanting by someone to like that present the person is giving in the first place, all these things will work against the NLP session.

It is interesting and I will do more thinking / reading about it this week. Btw, I think the secret of successful NLP is subtly, if there is a secret, especially if a person is very firmiliar with your behavour and speaking pattern enough to notice discripencies, which of course will again work against what you're trying to do (ie, like the last sentence of your previous post). I am aware that as soon as you say something like, "it's okay, you don't have to believe me", especially to a compassionate individual, they will usually respond with something like "no no, I believe you" just for the sake of not hurting your feelings or whatever, but I don't know how this plays into NLP, and I don't know how convincing they are about this to themselves for that matter. I sometimes do this, being the empathetic type myself, but it need not necessarily mean I am at all being honest and truthful.

 

[Silver Incubus]

I could see NLP having some merit in principle, though I again would not go so far as to say the intensity shown in the video is at all realistic. Most people in that same situation would take a figurative step back, having noticed all of the oddities in the hosts behaviour, and this never happened with the guy. It did appear like he was transfixed to a degree, and I'm not sure NLP has anything to do with such a state, though I really don't know much about it to be honest.

For myself, I have noticed for along time how I sometimes act differently around different people. Person A I might be more reserved around than person B, and for awhile I thought perhaps it was psychological, situational, having more to do with those experiences I had around that person, or my perception of them and their expectation wrt my own behaviour than anything, and this I'm sure plays into that. However, over time I quickly realized that I go so far as to actually steal other peoples manourisms, vocab and expressions, completely unconsciously, and I think everyone does this to a degree without realizing this. Even now, I sometimes laugh the same way as a friend of mine does, which is like really terrible (it really is a bad laugh) and honestly regret leeching it, but it's there and I somehow integrated it into my own behaviour.

Continuing in this vein, I think this may be a contributing reason why many people in the past have considered me easy to get along with, though I know when females say that it's likely for other reasons, and of course, I am pretty laid back so this all should be considered. However, having picked up these behavour patterns from people I socialize with, I'm sure they do find it easier to speak with me, to me and understand me if I'm using a similar verbal and non-verbal set they do, as people tend to like that which they can relate to (music, movies etc). Insofar as that goes, I could see at least on a very superficial level how this may infact "work", but again, unless there is a trust, unless there is that time to observe and know how to relate, unless there is a wanting by someone to like that present the person is giving in the first place, all these things will work against the NLP session.

It is interesting and I will do more thinking / reading about it this week. Btw, I think the secret of successful NLP is subtly, if there is a secret, especially if a person is very firmiliar with your behavour and speaking pattern enough to notice discripencies, which of course will again work against what you're trying to do (ie, like the last sentence of your previous post). I am aware that as soon as you say something like, "it's okay, you don't have to believe me", especially to a compassionate individual, they will usually respond with something like "no no, I believe you" just for the sake of not hurting your feelings or whatever, but I don't know how this plays into NLP, and I don't know how convincing they are about this to themselves for that matter. I sometimes do this, being the empathetic type myself, but it need not necessarily mean I am at all being honest and truthful.

Well actually it is because the brain don't experience negatives as in the words don't won't can't not and the like. So yes essentially I told your unconscious mind to believe me. Like if i said "Don't think of a blue bike" in order for your brain to comprehend that statement it thinks of a blue bike.

You second paragraph talks about the thing we call Rapport. This is very useful in the sales area as you meet the customer, pace their breathing with your own, use the same predicates they use, and even repeating the same things back to them, you will both have them like you, and they will think you completely understand their wants and needs. You are building rapport by adopting their mannerisms and as such it is successful, but you don't do it in a sytemic way, and NLP is just the oganization of the best behaviours to create the desired outcome, be it good sales numbers or ridding yourself of a phobia, its all behaviour and its all changable.

There is a thing in sales called 'up-time' in where you are not thinking about anything internally but observing and reacting to what the customer is doing in reaction to what you are doing/saying. By obseving muscle tone, skin colour, lip size and other things you can begin to change what you are doing or continue it to get the wanted affect.

 

[judas69]

Well actually it is because the brain don't experience negatives as in the words don't won't can't not and the like. So yes essentially I told your unconscious mind to believe me. Like if i said "Don't think of a blue bike" in order for your brain to comprehend that statement it thinks of a blue bike.

Could I honestly get away with saying "you're not all that intelligent" ..and have you walk away thinking, "gee, what a wonderful complement"?

Maybe instead of tapping you lightly on the shoulder, I might get a better response applying a rusty shovel to thine forehead.