The malfunction of modern religion

[cryosteel]

The problem with christianity and indeed most religion in the modern age is that it has lost its transcendent significance and thus has condemned itself to impotently obsess with and overstate the significance of human trifles.

Read more at Corrupt Éire

(Christianity fights in vain for ownership of secular humanism, transmogrifying itself into superstitious materialism.)

 

[MetalBooger]

Christianity has lost nothing, if you went into a church you would see the transcendent significance of religion, but since you dont, you have no knowledge of it other than the rare political statements that occasionally come from christian leaders. You are an outsider and nothing else.

I believe it was the great napoleon who said the "temporal power of popes is fatal to religion". Dont expect christianity to start intervening in the political realm, they know how difficult and often dangerous it is to themselves when they step too far. Afterall, the age old saying that power corrupts usually is true. Its these american upstarts who think the world is so terrible, and immoral that are trying to influence the political world, yet they dont understand that even Jesus Christ refused to be a king of the secular world. And by christians i mean the 1.2 billion catholics, not accounting for the remaining 800 million.

 

[Έρεβος]

You are an outsider and nothing else.

Funny, I've found that more atheists better know the complexities of church workings than Christians do. It could have something to do with the fact that nearly all Christians care nothing for reasoning and simply want to believe, as they are too cowardly, lazy, etc. to come up with a way of life, create intelligent values as opposed to dogmatic morals, what is good & rational for their own self based upon their experiences, on their own. So I would say Christians are blind "insiders," while the outsiders have fully functioning vision that looks into the heart of the faith. Great, we're outsiders, and we know more about your own religion than you do - oh golly.

 

[Scourge of God]

Christianity has lost nothing, if you went into a church you would see the transcendent significance of religion, but since you dont, you have no knowledge of it other than the rare political statements that occasionally come from christian leaders. You are an outsider and nothing else.

Logical Fallacy Alert!

 

[Imp!]

As much as I hate to admit it, logical fallicy and all, Metal Booger is right. Let me point out some passages:

Mathew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? [11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mathew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mathew 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears for they hear.

Reading the bible, studying every bit of the "inner workings" of churches, and acquiring mountains of knowledge does not mean a thing. A christian does not need proof of anything to know what he knows. If he's "chosen" to understand, he will understand, and those trying to understand with their ears and eyes will not if they are not chosen.

BTW, I think it quite funny that many atheists blatantly point out that being a disciple of Christ is a purely unintelligent thing, as if this were a bold new fact. It is true, there is no intelligence required. This is not to say Christians are not intelligent, there are many smart Christians. But believing in Christ is not something one goes about mechanically, checking every box to be sure everything checks out, no, it requires a blind faith.

JColtrane, I'd like to hear you pipe in, you've some good posts in this area, and I think you'd voice your ideas better than I can voice mine.

 

[Έρεβος]

Mathew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? [11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mathew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mathew 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears for they hear.

Actually, this only shows that the bible itself is absolutely ridden with rather pathetic logical fallacies. And I don't think all Christians are unintelligent, just that for the vast majority of the time blind faith correlates with utter idiocy.

 

[Imp!]

What...?
Where do you get this from?

 

[bajista_metalero]

well.....it's a very difficult topic. Religion it's a manifestation of one of the most promitives sides of the human being: The quest for the ultimate meaning of life, what we are, where do belong and where are we going. I believe in God, but we have to remember one thing: Humans make religion, humans makes mistakes, in consecuence the human being transform religion in his own interpretation of reality. That interpretation it's empty because doesn't fit to the actual times. We can't judge something empty, it's like try to make something heavier putting air on it.
Religion depends of each one interpretation about religion.

Excuse me for my bad english lenguage!

 

[MetalBooger]

Can you explain to me about logical fallacies? And how does it apply to what i said.

Έρεβος i noticed he made a statement that isnt really true, and i argued it was wrong. You dont think christians have insecurities about their own faith? When scientific theory can easily create a world without God? I cant speak for others but I looked at both sides of the debate, and i made a choice based on reason. I see the genius of humanity and its true uniqueness in the world, and since science doesnt do it for me in explaining the creation of the universe, i choose religion.

 

[JColtrane]

First of all, I think atheists, agnostics, or simply non-Christians can give a very unique and true prespective to people that are inside the church. I think we tend to get so wrapped up in it that we need a more objective observer. That way we realize "Hey, we're humans and there's lots of mistakes we've made and continue to make. Let's try to fix them".
Secondly, just real quick, those very select verses that you picked out were probably most likely directed at the pharisees of Jesus' age. He was saying, "I'm giving you the secret to the kingdom of God, where all these people who are too prideful to understand me will be left out". It wasn't really directed at people outside the Jewish religion, although I suppose you could apply it to religious pride everywhere now. But I don't think it was meant the way you guys are talking about it.
I'd like to write more but I gotta go to class!

 

[Έρεβος]

I looked at both sides of the debate, and i made a choice based on reason. since science doesnt do it for me in explaining the creation of the universe, i choose religion.

Doesn't do it for you? That is your "reasoning"?

What...?
Where do you get this from?

Get what from? The verse, the way you used it, completely defeats reasoning with mystic bullshit.

 

[Έρεβος]

Can you explain to me about logical fallacies? And how does it apply to what i said.

Basically circumventing having to use your intellect with irrelevant excuses. Saying something that attempts to disqualify what the opponent said without actually addressing it.

 

[Imp!]

Get what from? The verse, the way you used it, completely defeats reasoning with mystic bullshit.

You must be on the wrong page or something...
Right now I'm supporting Metal Booger's point, that those on the outside cannot truly understand our faith. We ain't arguing whether it's mystic bullshit or not (well you are...)

 

[Έρεβος]

You must be on the wrong page or something...
Right now I'm supporting Metal Booger's point, that those on the outside cannot truly understand our faith. We ain't arguing whether it's mystic bullshit or not (well you are...)

All you are doing is saying "it's faith." That isn't discussing or reasoning - that is shoving your head up your ass.

 

[MetalBooger]

Think of it this way, there are right wingers and left wingers. The extremes of both refuse to understand each other, and although they read and study each other's parties, they rarely ever cross over and say "i guess that conservative or liberal is right". It has been proven that no side of the spectrum is truly wrong, however both sides continue bashing each other, because these are ideological differences based on the values of the individuals. I remember before the conservatives under stephen harper won the election, there was so much bullshit floating around by the leftests that they would make the country into a theocracy, send us to Iraq, and strip us of our rights, well, it turns out although they havent been very conservative, they also havent done any of that shit. Note they are a minority government.

Since the beginning of time religion has been around, and also atheists, from my research im guessing 1/5 to 1/10 throughout history. These are two seperate groups, much like right wing and left wingers that will not accept opposing ideologies.

You can make assumptions about a religion all you want, but you arent in the club and you dont want to be in the club, so you obviously wont understand it as well as us. Just like a conservative understands and accepts conservatism more than a liberal.

 

[Scourge of God]

Why is it that the very same people who throw a fit when ANUS types point out that perhaps they simply lack the faculties to 'get' Burzum have no trouble trotting out the same argument to promote their psychotic religious dogma?

I any event, Christianity is provably wrong, so why is this even an issue?

 

[MetalBooger]

Well if anyone with psychosis is promoting their religion they first must be properly examined by a registered physician!

 

[JColtrane]

Scourge, how can you prove that a religion is wrong? I'm not quite understanding how that is even possible.

It seems to me like everyone thinks that Christians are necessarily anti-rational, faith-against-reason fanatics. Now, there certainly are some Christians that think reason is a tool of the devil or some other nonsense like that (these are the same people that condemn reading philosophy). In my opinion, belief in God is something 'properly basic' to reason; i.e., belief is really necessary either way, and I choose faith. I think I've made this argument several times on this forum, so y'all are probably sick of it But really I think that I am free to and do use reason just as much someone who chooses not to have faith.

I understand that this is not the opinion of several people on this board, who think that choosing faith inevitably sacrifices reason on the altar; and that Christians are not free to question everything. But as far as I've experienced, my faith works in a completely different way.

 

[Έρεβος]

Scourge, how can you prove that a religion is wrong? I'm not quite understanding how that is even possible.

Provably wrong in that with the amount of falsity that is throughout Christianity it is (logically) about 99.9% likely to be wrong. Sure, it isn't "absolutely provable," per say, but it is just about as likely as there being a pink unicorn dancing on my head at the moment. But, of course, whenever any of the thousands of falsities within the bible and churches are brought up, "faith!" is professed. There are so many verses in the bible that are incredibly obvious psychological bullshits perfect for coercion of the unwitting, and tons of obvious excuses to circumvent the falsities - such as the one Imp! stated above. My personal favorite is the law against graven images (extremely obvious excuse to bullshit why there are no traces of Judaism before the ancient Mesopotamian religions).

 

[Έρεβος]

Think of it this way, there are right wingers and left wingers. The extremes of both refuse to understand each other, and although they read and study each other's parties, they rarely ever cross over and say "i guess that conservative or liberal is right". It has been proven that no side of the spectrum is truly wrong, however both sides continue bashing each other, because these are ideological differences based on the values of the individuals. I remember before the conservatives under stephen harper won the election, there was so much bullshit floating around by the leftests that they would make the country into a theocracy, send us to Iraq, and strip us of our rights, well, it turns out although they havent been very conservative, they also havent done any of that shit. Note they are a minority government.

Both conservative (liberals) and liberals are wrong - that is rather obvious. Sides can be shown wrong, quite easily. One perfect sign of when something has been shown wrong is when its defenders must resort to this "neither side is truly wrong! *sticks out tongue*." Irrational relativism as a defense marks either what is being defended as wrong, or the one defending it without merit (or both).