The News Thread

Making the rich poorer is idiotic, you want to make the poor richer. Same old dumb ass socialist nonsense about making everybody more equal by making everybody equally poorer.

Increasing handouts for the poor hasn't been proven to improve their life in the long-run, my entire family is a testament to the exact opposite.

I didn't drag my ass out of poverty by that method either.

How much of your own money have you personally donated? Have you donated school books or done anything that might help a poor kid break out of his family's economic status? Or are you just interested in virtue signalling with other people's money?

You're a worse kind of leech than lifetime welfare cheats.
 
I missed this. Objection. You're tarring a fairly large group of people by listing mostly a handful of incidents - and at least one which isn't attributable to "billionaires".

There are few, if any billionaires without blood on their hands. If it isn't environmental brutality, it's economic exploitation. Perhaps there is an exception, and I am all open to the counterexample, but I sure as hell can't think of one.
 
There are few, if any billionaires without blood on their hands. If it isn't environmental brutality, it's economic exploitation. Perhaps there is an exception, and I am all open to the counterexample, but I sure as hell can't think of one.

"Economic exploitation". I ask for examples and you get even more vague. If you want to get abstract enough there's no one without blood on their hands. Keep grinding that axe though, it's more than a hundred years old now and quite dull from all the blood spilled across the world. Like in Venezuala right now for example.
 
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It's funny to see socialists talk about economics through a lens of original sin (blood on hands) like no poor person ever moved into the rich bracket.

I guess rich people were born rich and remained rich, what's the goal? Help to make poor people just wealthy enough to prosper but still poor enough to avoid having the bloody hands of a rich person?

It's merely a reworking of the old question, at what point does a small business we should support become an evil and immoral corporation exploiting "wage slaves" due to their greed?

The top 1% and by extension the rich are not a static economic group.

 
Making the rich poorer is idiotic, you want to make the poor richer. Same old dumb ass socialist nonsense about making everybody more equal by making everybody equally poorer.

Increasing handouts for the poor hasn't been proven to improve their life in the long-run, my entire family is a testament to the exact opposite.

I didn't drag my ass out of poverty by that method either.

I don't consider things like education, health care, housing and a living wage handouts. Those are basic human rights that I believe the government should provide everyone with.

As far as billionaires, how many of them have benefited from handouts from the government? How many of them benefited from the government bailout of the banks? How many of them have benefited from tax loopholes and investing money in overseas accounts? How many of them benefited from a privileged background in which their parents handed them the payment for their education, or gave them the money for their start up... or in the case of about a third of them were straight up handed their fortune from their parents?

How much of your own money have you personally donated? Have you donated school books or done anything that might help a poor kid break out of his family's economic status? Or are you just interested in virtue signalling with other people's money?

You're a worse kind of leech than lifetime welfare cheats.

I can honestly say that helping the oppressed and impoverished overcome these obstacles is what I've dedicated my life to. I teach in a school in which 90%+ of the students live in poverty but yet over 94% graduate and over 87% are eligible for a 4-year university. That doesn't happen by accident. My fellow teachers and I achieve that by donating countless hours tutoring (which we could be getting far more money privately tutoring rich kids), as well as donating time and money other needs (i.e. glasses for a student who cannot see) or means of enrichment (taking kids on a college trip so they can see what universities like Cal, UCLA and Stanford are like first hand) then you are clueless.

So yes, I put my money, time, energy and life work where my mouth is. So explain to me how I'm worse than a lifetime welfare cheat...
 
"Economic exploitation". I ask for examples and you get even more vague. If you want to get abstract enough there's no one without blood on their hands. Keep grinding that axe though, it's more than a hundred years old now and quite dull from all the blood spilled across the world. Like in Venezuala right now for example.

I actually agree with the bolded statement. That said, the CEO of a company that mines blood diamonds has more blood on his/her hands then the consumer that purchases one blood diamond. The consumer is innocent, but obviously the CEO have a far greater burden of responsibility. Moreover, those who have more options available to them bear a greater responsibility then those with less, and wealth and power produce more opportunities.
 
The problem isn't handouts, the problem is people thinking handouts move people out of poverty. If handouts were proven to lift people out of poverty I might support them.

So yes, I put my money, time, energy and life work where my mouth is.

I'll have to take your word for it.

I don't consider things like education, health care, housing and a living wage handouts. Those are basic human rights that I believe the government should provide everyone with.

None of those things are basic human rights, except perhaps a basic cheap education. If your "right" relies on the existence of other peoples money to exist, it's not a basic human right.

The consumer is innocent, but obviously the CEO have a far greater burden of responsibility

Preposterous, without the customer's interest in the product, the CEO wouldn't be selling the product to begin with.
 
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I don't consider things like education, health care, housing and a living wage handouts. Those are basic human rights that I believe the government should provide everyone with.

So basic human rights are things other people must provide. That's slavery bo. Slavery = human rights. Got it.

As far as billionaires, how many of them have benefited from handouts from the government? How many of them benefited from the government bailout of the banks? How many of them have benefited from tax loopholes and investing money in overseas accounts? How many of them benefited from a privileged background in which their parents handed them the payment for their education, or gave them the money for their start up... or in the case of about a third of them were straight up handed their fortune from their parents?

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I actually agree with the bolded statement. That said, the CEO of a company that mines blood diamonds has more blood on his/her hands then the consumer that purchases one blood diamond. The consumer is innocent, but obviously the CEO have a far greater burden of responsibility. Moreover, those who have more options available to them bear a greater responsibility then those with less, and wealth and power produce more opportunities.

lol your concrete example is blood diamonds? So now you're anti-semitic?
 
None of those things are basic human rights, except perhaps a basic cheap education. If your "right" relies on the existence of other peoples money to exist, it's not a basic human right.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

See article 26 (education), article 25 (health care and basic needs including housing) and article 23 (work and fair wage). And yes, USA and Australia are signatories of the document. But I'm sure your opinion on what qualifies as a basic human right is more valuable then a critical document on the subject signed by more than 50 nations.



Preposterous, without the customer's interest in the product, the CEO wouldn't be selling the product to begin with.

That's a very simplistic way to look at it. That said, I don't withhold responsibility from consumers.
 
The problem with mandatory redistribution of wealth is you give a group of people the power to take it by force or threat of prosecution. More often than not, that group ends up both inefficient at resource allocation AND corrupt, pocketing a lot of it.

Giving the poor money does not lift a significant enough number of them out of poverty, but enables them to make more poor babies who will need more welfare.

Corporate welfare is also bad; it leads to artificial bubbles that do not reflect true supply and demand that ultimately burst causing more economic damage than if they had been left alone. Failed businesses should be allowed to fail.

"Free" education for all will be low quality shit education for all, and a college degree will be even more meaningless than it already is, because everyone will have one, albeit worthless ones that don't mean they know anything useful.

"Free" healthcare for all will be fantastically costly in a country as large and populous as ours. Imagine picking up the tab for every single cancer and AIDS and who knows what the fuck other exotic disease patient out there. The health services themselves will suck and wait times will be long. Furthermore, it's unnatural as it disrupts the natural order of the life cycle. We must let death fulfill its role. We've been pouring money and medicine into Africa for decades. They're still poor, overpopulated, diseased, and war-torn today.
 
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http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

See article 26 (education), article 25 (health care and basic needs including housing) and article 23 (work and fair wage). And yes, USA and Australia are signatories of the document. But I'm sure your opinion on what qualifies as a basic human right is more valuable then a critical document on the subject signed by more than 50 nations.

So if nobody paid taxes, nobody would have basic human rights? That's idiotic.

Dubbing things as a BHR is just an easy, somewhat thuggish way to have your ideological views be mandatory. I challenge their definition based on those grounds. People are doing the same with "marriage equality" that it's a human right, it's redefined anytime people want to push their ideas on the world.
 
Reading the last few pages makes me think CF has spent too much time in California and the general left-ness that this thread is teetering towards.

Being "in" Scandinavia for the last few weeks is kind of interesting to the whole Sanders experience in which I dont think is positive.

15 pack of Coke cans for 20$? Commi's
 
Way too many things to comment on individually, so here's how I feel (in general).

The ethics of redistribution look contradictory because the statement "I earned it, it's mine" holds an axiomatic status. Of course, this statement breaks down as well when you start looking closely at it.

There is no metaphysical connection between the work you do and the money you earn, or the products you buy. This emerged historically around the time (or shortly after) notions of "property" shifted from landed property to moveable property, and eventually to notions of the self. You own yourself, and this interior bond reflects an inalienable right to self-property and, consequently, to rights themselves. It's a convenient little feedback loop (i.e. I have rights because it's my right).

This is a construction built on pathos rather than logic. Obviously, if someone steals a paper I wrote, submits it to a journal and it gets published under their name, I would be livid; but that's not because I believe in an immaterial connection between my efforts and the finished product. My reaction is entirely emotional, and others can empathize with my reaction because they probably can comprehend how I feel - perhaps they've even suffered similar circumstances. And we can say that my experience is incredibly unfortunate, but we can't make a logical argument saying I have a metaphysical right to ownership over my labor (we could say that I have a historical, or systemic, right; but that's another argument that raises other issues).

The reaction is emotional, and there's no logical reason to limit it to experiences of work. We can experience an emotional reaction to seeing a homeless person along the road, and we can feel that we should collectively redistribute monies in order to help such people. There may be no logical ground on which to base such an argument, but neither is there one to say that I have a right to my own property.

All that said, I don't think welfare programs or distribution efforts work outside the context of the global marketplace. Capitalism is a materially necessary historical context within which to pursue distribution efforts, which can be implemented to varying degrees. Socialism and communism, despite their opposition to capitalist structures, are actually steeped in early capitalistic theory (after all, Marx took the labor theory of value from classical economists) - they are constituted by the capitalist context. The only way we move past it is through a serious paradigm shift that neither socialism nor communism can, in my opinion, bring about.

When people decry welfare programs or distribution efforts as socialist, it makes me laugh. There's a reason why socialist countries fail, and it doesn't have to do with socialism being an inherently poor system. It has to do with socialism being a poor system for dealing with the global financial market.
 
Socialism requires The New [Socialist] Man to work - a mythical creature.

Socialism, conceptually, is kind of like a wooden boat for carrying termites.
 
When I say that corruption is a constitutive component of complex systems, I mean it in a neutral and technical sense - corruption is noise, interference, disruption, etc. In informatics and systems theory, this kind of corruption has a productive effect; that is, it forces systematic reorganization, increasing complexity. There's nothing inherently positive or negative about this, but I tend to see it as evolutionary.

Local corruption can overlap with complex, systematic corruption; but the latter isn't necessarily directly responsible for the disenfranchisement of individuals. It is, however, a productive structural quality of complex systems.

I could go more into this and cite sources, but that would probably be better suited for the Batshit thread.

Personally I don't really see evolution as an objectively beneficial process, except insofar as when evolution comes to about to counteract a limitation. And if that limitation is corruption, then you're basically saying that we need corruption so we have an incentive to counteract corruption.

I also think that your reasoning would suggest that societies with high rates of corruption would in general be more complex or more highly developed than those with low rates of corruption, when in general the opposite seems to hold true.

I suppose I might be able to buy the argument that accepting a certain degree of corruption is a necessary stage a society needs to pass through in order to to put in place countermeasures against its future development. But it also seems obvious then that casting your votes for the least corrupt candidate (and most vehemently anti-corruption candidate) would be the best way to bring about a progression from that stage onto the next.
 
Socialism requires The New [Socialist] Man to work - a mythical creature.

Socialism, conceptually, is kind of like a wooden boat for carrying termites.

Socialism only means that the state owns the means of production; it doesn't necessarily mean that all workers ought to be equally rewarded, or motivated only by their sense of duty to the collective. There are all sorts of creative ways one can combine socialism as stated above with an understanding of self-betterment as the most realistic and effective source of individual motivation. You don't necessarily need "The New [Socialist] Man" to make it work.

Undiluted capitalism is equally idealistic, but it doesn't seem to have acquired quite the same taboo status as its counterpart in the US.