The real amp vs simulators debate

[illuminatingsun]

So, I'm not sure whether there's already a thread on this topic. I tried searching for one using Google but didn't find one. I'm wondering what your opinions are on this matter of what works 'best' in a recording. Also, if anyone could offer some advice about my situation that would be great.

I'm currently considering getting something for my 'studio' for guitars, but I'm not quite sure whether to get a real amp or the Digidesign Eleven rack. The Axe FX is a bit too expensive and I find the POD XT to be good for cleans, but not so great for distorted tones.

My budget is around £900-£1000. I'm only looking for something to record with so I've considered getting a combo amp, but it's not as flexible as an amp head (and cabinet) which can easily be substituted if tonal requirements change.

As regards sounds, I'm looking for something that can handle cleans nicely as well as distortion. However, an amp simulator is attractive because there are so many sounds to be gained for the money, but my concern is how well these sounds will sit in the mix - something people complain about a lot.

I hear so many mixed opinions on these matters so I cannot come to a solid conclusion. Any suggestions?

 

[FIXXXER]

wait, save money and buy axe-fx.

cheers
S.

 

[aortizjr]

I think this might be a debate even internally for lots of people. Amp sims get better and better. Even currently I use a GSP1101 live which just freaks me out being a total tube guy. But it hangs incredibly well live. And I hear a lot of great things from guys on this forum using sims.

With sims, I find that there is much more of a fight to get a good tone that sits in the mix that doesn't have any strange artifacts or weird spikes. A good sounding amp, mic'd in a decent room to me just sits in a mix a lot easier and better. At the end of the day, I will pretty much always go real amp. But there have been a few jems in sims, just depends on what is called for.

Because sims are getting better, they are definitely usable. Especially if you are under a time crunch, doing demos, or are in a position where they make more sense (ie. one room, cranky neighbors, late nights, etc.). I love them for writing, and with some time I know I could probably tweak till they sounded "album ready."

What style of music are we talking about here as well?

With the exception of recording other bands, I typically really only use a couple of tones. A wicked distortion tone (ala. Metal-ENGL Powerball) with variations for leads like delay and maybe OD. Then a clean tone, which I will add OD, or a bit of Distortion too. I like my cleans to break up when I hit the strings hard. And that is really it... covers rock (turn down volume knob), metal, jazz, blues, and all the other randomness I play.

Other bands will likely bring their own rigs. Ugh which can be a fight, if their stuff sucks.

So personally, with your budget, and assuming metal, I would get a tube amp. Amp/Cab or combos are fine. Just with heads and high gain, there are a lot more options. For quiet recording, you can get load boxes and DI's and use impulses, which to me still sound better than most sims depending on the combination.

Are you playing live at all? You may consider tube preamps and cab sims. Ie. the ENGLe530, Rocktron, etc. if you aren't.

The way I look at a lot of sims, especially most hardware ones, is it is like a Leatherman multi-tool knife. It definitely gets the job done when you need it and I carry one everywhere. But I certainly am not selling all the tools in my shop.

Well and I personally believe that learning how mic your amp, is an invaluable skill. You will use it live, and any future endeavors even if you don't really get deep into recording.

 

[illuminatingsun]

Thanks a lot for the replies guys. It's good to hear your opinions.

I think this might be a debate even internally for lots of people. Amp sims get better and better. Even currently I use a GSP1101 live which just freaks me out being a total tube guy. But it hangs incredibly well live. And I hear a lot of great things from guys on this forum using sims.

With sims, I find that there is much more of a fight to get a good tone that sits in the mix that doesn't have any strange artifacts or weird spikes. A good sounding amp, mic'd in a decent room to me just sits in a mix a lot easier and better. At the end of the day, I will pretty much always go real amp. But there have been a few jems in sims, just depends on what is called for.

Because sims are getting better, they are definitely usable. Especially if you are under a time crunch, doing demos, or are in a position where they make more sense (ie. one room, cranky neighbors, late nights, etc.). I love them for writing, and with some time I know I could probably tweak till they sounded "album ready."

What style of music are we talking about here as well?

With the exception of recording other bands, I typically really only use a couple of tones. A wicked distortion tone (ala. Metal-ENGL Powerball) with variations for leads like delay and maybe OD. Then a clean tone, which I will add OD, or a bit of Distortion too. I like my cleans to break up when I hit the strings hard. And that is really it... covers rock (turn down volume knob), metal, jazz, blues, and all the other randomness I play.

Other bands will likely bring their own rigs. Ugh which can be a fight, if their stuff sucks.

So personally, with your budget, and assuming metal, I would get a tube amp. Amp/Cab or combos are fine. Just with heads and high gain, there are a lot more options. For quiet recording, you can get load boxes and DI's and use impulses, which to me still sound better than most sims depending on the combination.

Are you playing live at all? You may consider tube preamps and cab sims. Ie. the ENGLe530, Rocktron, etc. if you aren't.

The way I look at a lot of sims, especially most hardware ones, is it is like a Leatherman multi-tool knife. It definitely gets the job done when you need it and I carry one everywhere. But I certainly am not selling all the tools in my shop.

Well and I personally believe that learning how mic your amp, is an invaluable skill. You will use it live, and any future endeavors even if you don't really get deep into recording.

Are you using the GSP1101 in the studio as well as live? If so, how well does it work?

The style of music I play with my band is influenced by bands like Porcupine Tree, Anathema, Demians, etc. 'Prog' I guess you could loosely call it, with slight metal influences.

My prime concern is getting a great tone for recording. I'm not really concerned about the live aspect for now since producing a CD is my main goal at the moment.

The tube preamp and impulses as well as the head and load box routes both sound quite practical for what I'm aiming for. I'm not one for hundreds of effects so I'd be very happy with a great clean sound and smooth, clear distortion, even if its something below my budget that gets the job done.

 

[ParsonsMatt]

The Axe-FX is the best sounding digital unit. The free amp sims aren't honestly THAT far off from it that you can't use them while you're saving up for it.

 

[Trevoire520]

To me the main advantage of using pod farm or similar is being able to tweak the amp settings in the mix and the variety of tones on offer.
In my opinion a well mic'd amp will sound better most of the time though. It's really two totally different methods to be honest.

If I were in your position I would get a copy of POD Farm Platinum, (this includes the metal pack which is a must if you're recording metal) AND a decent head and cab so you can get the best of both worlds! If there's a sound you can't get out of your amp then use POD farm as a preamp and feed it into the fx return of your amp and mic it up to get some valve-y goodness.

POD Farm should only knock you back £90ish and leave you with £900 to spend on a decent amp and cab, not a bad budget at all.
Also if you don't have a tubescreamer already then get one. It's a must for metal. I'm also assuming you have a half decent mic? A SM57 is cheap and great for amps if you don't already have one.

For the amp and cab go second hand, there are some killer deals at the moment with the recession on so you get alot for your money!

Cab wise look for something with Celestion Vintage 30's, though if you're in standard/drop d tuning then something with G12-T75's will maybe be better.

Examples of good cab's to look out for:
Mesa Rectifier Standard (considered the best for metal by a long way)
Orange PPC412
Line 6 Spider Valve (you can pick one of these up for about £200 if you keep a look out)
Harley Benton Vintage
Marhshall 1960 Vintage
Marhshall 1960 (common as hell and very cheap)

As far as good valve amps go:
Peavey Windsor - Does the whole Marshall JCM800 thing very well. No good for cleans though.
Peavey 6505 - Considered THE metal amp here. Used by just about every band out there at the moment and it's very easy to record. Not too many of them on the used market though
Peavey XXX - A bit more dry and in your face than the 6505 but it has a much better clean sound.
Engl Thunder - Not far off the 6505 sound and tight as hell. These are going on ebay all day for £350-400.
Marshall JVM - Hugely flexible amp, lots of guys on the forum are liking it.
Laney VH/TT - Again very flexible.
Orange Tiny/Dual Terror - Only does one sound, but it's a good 'un.
Bugera 333/6260 etc - Cheap and actually sound really good. Buy new though so you get a warranty.


There's a whole bunch of others to consider, have a look around and see what appeals to you.

 

[illuminatingsun]

The Engl E530 and the Bugeras have caught my attention. I'd be using them in conjunction with impulses most of the time. I think the latter would be easier to integrate with my current setup since I wouldn't need any additional equipment (e.g. load box).

In terms of tone, which one 'wins'? I'm not looking for super harsh high gain death metal tones so I don't need a huge amount of gain. The sort of distorted guitar sound I'm looking for is like the one on "Way Out of Here" by Porcupine Tree. Obviously not an exact copy, but somewhere near.

 

[muckypup1]

The e530 is a great unit IMO, with the right impulses it's more than capable of producing quality results.

If you used it with something like Recabinet, would you be able to get "pro" sounds out of it? I'm talking about Jeff Loomis style tones, or would you still need a full stack to get that kind of tone?

Its a total n00b question, but If its possible to get a sound close to his sound on Zero Phase Order, then a e530 is something I'm fucking gasing for

 

[Melb_shredder]

I think my own PERSONAL dislike of amp sims is just how much easier I feel it is to get a good tone from a mic'd up tube amp then it is to fiddle with, as was mentioned, the artifacts and annoying frequencies inherent in sims.
I've literally spent about 15 minutes micing and setting up a Mesa Mark IV and a Recto and still feel I've gotten way better tones than when I spend as it seems, hours on end getting a fitting relative tone from amp sims. Something about the dynamics and reactive feel of a real amp just takes me with it too
I understand not everyone has the space or time, ala Joey. And mind you. I don't think sim tones get better than his, and his is pod farm not an Axe FX mind you.
I think if you spend enough time with it, you can get sims to sit and feel pretty good in a mix. But I've never really felt that sim guitar tone is as fat and warm and a mic'd up tube amp.

E.G - Listen to say, Attack Attack, which I believe Joey did with the diamond plate sim on pod farm, now compare that to chaosphere on Meshuggah's album.
Different style don't get me wrong. But the GRIND of a real recto gets lost in the sim version, and while it fits, it just doesn't feel like it has any soul, body to it.

Just my opinion of course

 

[shred101]

Im 50/50 and I dont even put them in the same ballpark. Amp sims are pure conveniance for me but I've yet to try one that sounds like what its trying to sound like (if that makes any sense). They're great until you actually get to tracking something. Its pretty easy to understand as well, if you take, for example, a Mesa Triple Rectifier simulator and compare it to the real thing. It totally blew me away when I first played one after having played with sims of them for a while beforehand because the difference was so huge (this was about the time I started to go off line6 gear and sims in general).
So for me, sims are great for demos, scratch mixes, practicing, songwriting, odd overdubs, shite like that, etc. but unless they make some kind of amazing overnight advance I don't think they'll ever get a sim that sounds and sits in the mix like the real thing.

 

[ronaldpassion]

Hei, interesting topic.

1. Decide your need. For Home Recording? Live Performance and Live Recording?

If Home Recording
2. Guitar Software or Hardware FX like POD XT or DIGITECH etc can be solution.

Software? Oh come on... It is so bad not real
Yeah, but it is 2 or 3 YEAR A GO.

LOTS GUITAR SOFTWARE THAT KICK ASS (free and commercial)
Here are that i already test:
- LEPOU GUITAR AMP
- ARADAZ AMP/KUASSA AMP
- VANDAL AMP
- NICK CROW AMP
- SHRED AMP
- REVOLUTIONZ AMP (i am the developer, www.1ststudio.blogspot.com)

I am personally prefer GUITAR SOFTWARE MODELING COMPARE TO GUITAR HARDWARE MODELLING.
You may buy the commercial product of them or DONATE to them for the freeware, appreciate to them that some make great freeware.
FREE WARE DOESNT MEAN SUCK OR BETA that will blow your computer.
Their sound can be trust and quality are good.
NOW JUST YOUR TASTE...

All s/w that i list is under around $150.
Not like other more than $300 -> SOUND NOTHING!

YOUR BUDGET "£900-£1000" -> YOU MAY BUY & DONATE ALL OF THEM.
And Get best tone in town.

Just my little opinion
TQ,RP!

 

[aortizjr]

Are you using the GSP1101 in the studio as well as live? If so, how well does it work?

The style of music I play with my band is influenced by bands like Porcupine Tree, Anathema, Demians, etc. 'Prog' I guess you could loosely call it, with slight metal influences.

My prime concern is getting a great tone for recording. I'm not really concerned about the live aspect for now since producing a CD is my main goal at the moment.

The tube preamp and impulses as well as the head and load box routes both sound quite practical for what I'm aiming for. I'm not one for hundreds of effects so I'd be very happy with a great clean sound and smooth, clear distortion, even if its something below my budget that gets the job done.

Porcupine Tree actually uses sims on their records and I think they sound great. I think Anathama would be reachable as well.

The GSP1101 I have to say is a great guitar processor. Best I have ever used hands down. But I haven't played the Axe-Fx. But it is the first sim (including the RP series) that actually feels like a real amp. Not too harsh or muddy, good feedback and feel, responds well to playing and picking dynamics volume knob changes etc. But... I think the speakers sims are pretty meh... Some days they sound ok on their own, but when mixing things start to get funky.

So I would definitely look into impulses or micing up a cab. Also you absolutely must get the Beta C48 firmware from mustbebeta.com. That changed the game for me and the GSP1101.

The GSP1101 has also been really easy to dial and get a good tone. You can treat it more like a typical preamp rather than having to dig into extra EQ's and such tweaking to death to get something usable like I have done with Pod's, Vamps, GT's, GNX, Guitar Rig, Zoom's, etc. Then the extra EQ and work is just icing.

The Axe-FX has some great tones in there (from clips I have heard and live bands). Really it is a bargain since the FX quality apparently is as good if not better than Eventide, so based on that alone it is a bargain. But at $2k, that would pay for a killer tube amp. So I shy away.

 

[onqel]

Software vs Real Gear...

What matters in the end is the final sound! Personally, I have no room that I can track/reamp in because of the neighbours(included the owners of the house) ..
Because of this, ampsim's are a real life saver for me, I can get better tones with them anyway because of my room acoustics.. Unless I get a cab simulator with line out to place after my amp. And because I believe in real gear, I try to achieve that with modeling stuff with an analog approach(resistor/capacitor/diode/triode) instead of using a lifeless static line that is also introducing unnecessary fizz.. just my point of view..

 

[Matt-Steele]

I've heard tones that sounded shitty that were from modelers, and I've heard shitty tones that were from tube amps. I've also heard tones from modelers that sounded better than tube amps. I think it's getting to the point where you're splitting hairs between modelers and real amps. Whatever suits your needs and ears is what you should use. For many years, I never thought that technology would be able to rival the organic analog sound of tubes, but the day has arrived. Let's face it!

I suggest ignoring the debate, and spend your time and efforts on creating the music.

 

[illuminatingsun]

Thanks for your input guys. It's great to hear your opinions.

I've heard tones that sounded shitty that were from modelers, and I've heard shitty tones that were from tube amps. I've also heard tones from modelers that sounded better than tube amps. I think it's getting to the point where you're splitting hairs between modelers and real amps. Whatever suits your needs and ears is what you should use. For many years, I never thought that technology would be able to rival the organic analog sound of tubes, but the day has arrived. Let's face it!

I suggest ignoring the debate, and spend your time and efforts on creating the music.

Without a doubt, the music matters the most. My main concern is getting something capable of great sounds so that I have to worry about that side of making records less. Of course, there's a lot of work required and there's no shortcut, but having the gear with the capability is what matters to me.

I've narrowed my budget a bit. It seems like the Bugera heads wouldn't be much use without an attenuator, but I don't fancy spending a lot of money on an attenuator - some cost more than the Bugera heads!

So I've kind of narrowed down to a tube guitar preamp. I've been looking at the Marshall JMP-1 and the Engl E530, but it's so damn difficult to decide which would be better. Any ideas?

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

I don't like amp sims for metal guitar recording.

 

[Dave1978]

I've been using a lot of stuff from Freeware to an Engl Savage / Attuenator solution. Since 2009 I'm recording with an Axe-FX. For homerecording I would recommened Overloud TH1.
The Engl sounded like shit through cabsims and the Axe-FX may be a good unit overall but it is not the holy grail for metal-sounds.

 

[John_C]

Every time I use an amp sim i work out a decent tone and go "wow this actually works well"

Then i go plug into a real amp and I go "wow that sim sounded shit"

 

[-Loco-]

wait, save money and buy axe-fx.

cheers
S.

Hell yes. My Axe-Fx is god.

The Axe-FX is the best sounding digital unit. The free amp sims aren't honestly THAT far off from it that you can't use them while you're saving up for it.

They really are though, no free amp sim for me provides a tone even close to what I get on my Axe-Fx imo, especially for the gorgeous cleans. I see what you're saying but the ridiculous pricetag on them is well worth it imo. And they aren't all Bulb-Fx's either, you can get some really original sounds

 

[Jormyn]

My two cents: Someone who really, *really* knows what they're doing can, with the software around, pull off tones that are indistinguishable from a real amp. I've heard plenty of comparisons and seen a number of double-blind tests with results split down the middle.

If, on the other hand, you don't really, *really* know what you're doing (translation: most of us), the difference will likely be night-and-day no matter how rad your software tone sounds. My in-the-box guitar sound is way better than what my lazy mic technique and crappy amp can produce, but I can mic up the cabinet blind drunk and it will still sound more like a real amp than three days of squinting at EQ notches and A/Bing cab impulses.