The Responsibility of Man

I get you Seditious - it's a useful response to anything characterised as a black and white dichotomy, with value supposedly in the one and not the other. Showing similarities at base highlights the arbitrary line in the sand being drawn.

Razoredge - if you're not interested in philosophy, fuck off. Feel free to take this as some sort of formal warning, I guess.
 
Im more than interested in philosopy and have plenty of it... I also do listen and obsorb what outers are saying. A few seem to have a hardon for mine, this is not my doing. As if one side can attack what they dont want to hear but I can not return the pleasure or question theirs. Warn those that personally attack me. No attacks at me and I wont return the insults... is there some problem understanding this philosophy? I've kinda been figureing it was a universally known one ? If there is something Im still not understanding you could always contact me via non "public" means and apply your thoughts or reasoning for zero acceptance of my thoughts/views and "philosophy" in a more tactful manor... unless there is some other motivation. Sound fair boys ?
 
So my philosophy is that the line does not waver, only ones personal application due to their desires, which in essence is nearly the same identical point others have been making, only that I feel it is a more honest and accountable way of looking at it. As in: "Well, I may have crossed the line on that one" but understands for personal reason the motivation behind it. Now... what the heck is wrong with that ? Seriously ?
 
Personal attacks of the sort 'you don't make sense' are always going to be more tolerable in a philosophy forum than ones of the 'oh how profound and pointless' variety. If the reasons why are not obvious upon a little thought I would honestly suggest this is not the forum for you :)
Nobody cares what your philosophy is, only that you endeavour to explain your position and reasons for refuting others.
 
Personal attacks of the sort 'you don't make sense' are always going to be more tolerable in a philosophy forum than ones of the 'oh how profound and pointless' variety. If the reasons why are not obvious upon a little thought I would honestly suggest this is not the forum for you :)
Nobody cares what your philosophy is, only that you endeavour to explain your position and reasons for refuting others.

Which I have done quite well, thank you very much. If you have only seen my recieved insults as "you dont make any sense" you have not been paying attention. The reasons are very obvious to me and not as you are trying to paint them. If its not more than obvious that I operate under much thought and explaination there of, the problem is not with me. I would suggest others find a better approach in responding to mine, and everything will be peachy. Frankly Im still waiting for reasonable endeavours to refute mine, I have recieved some but they are scarce. Even more interesting is when others shaking their war feathers at me have in the end said nearly the same thing or contrarily exibited as much bias as myself.

Now hows about enough of this, its pointless, there was the PM option. Show respect and respect will be given. I dont have to agree with the philosophy of others to have one. At least until now I did stick to the origional and other presented questions of the origional poster. Something others did not. :)
 
when influenza kills chickens and cows and humans, does it have a responsibility to clean up it's mess? if not, why not?

suppose trees could clean up all the oxygen they make, in the interest of restoring the nice carbon-dioxide rich environment they're ruining with their behavior...

what actions of ours might be ruinous to our own survival as a species (which include overfishing and whatnot, not just the mess of pollution) may well be extremely beneficial for another species...and nature will continue along it's way happy as can be. Hell, how many extinctions do we have to thank for our existence, 3? ...destroying the status quo isn't intrinsically a bad thing. Thus it seems to me it is only for selfish reasons that we would seek to "clean up the mess", i.e., preserve the measure of cleanliness which favors our wellbeing. And what responsibility has any one of us to preserve that for ourselves or others? And do you hold this principle down to the level of the individual, as does Peter Singer when he says we in the west with $30,000 to spend on a luxury car, should be sending $20,000 to people starving to death in Africa---you're responsible to do with the environment what is good for other humans, right?--so why not other things for their good, instead of doing merely what you wish to, such as because you happen to find it also benefits you (as many people do with water restriction, reducing power usage, recycling, etc.)?

Either you're responsible to others, or you aren't. And if you're responsible to others, why to those who're yet unborn generations who'll suffer our ruins of this world and struggle to reverse the damage, but not to those who live and suffer today without our help? and if you are responsible to both, but do nothing for some, preferring your own broadband, and nike sneakers, why should we help those of the others you want to help, and in the way you want them helped, and with the amount of resources you think we should give of what we have?

hypocrisy corrodes all noble ideals.

This was a really interesting post. I'm trying to keep up with all this, but I'm having trouble. So much is being said!

Seditious, I do have a question for you. Don't you think that the fact that our species possesses a higher level of consciousness than (most) other species gives us some moral authority. You made the reference to a strain of influenza; but diseases have no ability to sense moral responsibility.

Do you think that the fact that human beings have the undeniable capability to question moral responsibilities means that they possess them? It seems to me that you encourage a more animalistic and instinctual method of living. Can you explain how you believe you can compare diseases to human beings? It would seem to me that our capability to assess moral judgment sets us apart. Perhaps you would say it shouldn't; but this would create somewhat of an impass, I think. If humans have the ability to question such things, why shouldn't they act on them? Are we being tested (I don't think you believe this, since it would imply some kind of higher power)? Should we strive to actually take a step back in our philosophies and questions of morality for a simpler form of logic? Or do you believe that questioning emotions and morality is in itself a step backward?

I'm curious to know what you feel.
 
Now hows about enough of this, its pointless, there was the PM option. Show respect and respect will be given. I dont have to agree with the philosophy of others to have one. At least until now I did stick to the origional and other presented questions of the origional poster. Something others did not. :)

Some users / moderators / admins may feel a distinct need to stay on the topic of the original post, personally I'd rather see a thread of interesting discussion continue in it's course, perhaps at some point necessitating a split, but not necessarily, given the original topic may have already been covered.

I could go to pm's for this sort of stuff but I'd rather allow the prospect of getting shot down by those who disagree with my judgement on the matter. Everything can be 'philosophical', board moderation no less so :p
 
Don't you think that the fact that our species possesses a higher level of consciousness than (most) other species gives us some moral authority.
you'll need to elucidate that idea before I can say 'no' knowing enough what I'm saying 'no' to, to explain why (all I can say right now is that I'm pretty sure that's what the short answer will be).

You made the reference to a strain of influenza; but diseases have no ability to sense moral responsibility.
or, indeed, ability to act on such a sense even if they had it. This is something the vegans like to talk about a lot - sure, sharks kill men, men kills sharks, but men shouldn't kill sharks, because we can eat carrots; we have a choice, so, according to them, we should choose not to do what we want where the shark or rabbit or sheep would, if it was human, ask us to refrain. To me theirs is an argument that doesn't even need to be had yet, for first we have to have someone show that we have a duty to not be inhumane to humans before we even worry about treating as human things that aren't.

what is important though is to be a little more objective than our cultural upbringing, and ask whether or not that which we 'sense' is actually 'moral responsibility'. After all, I feel sad and I predict a sense of guilt and shame when I think about strangling a cat, even my own cat, even because it is dying slowwwly from an infection from another cat's bite...but is this emotional reaction the identification of a moral reality, or is it just emotion? I very much side with Hobbes on such matters (and, in that respect, Hume). It's not clear that something I feel bad about doing - sneaking out late to get drunk, having an extra cookie, raping a sleeping drunk girl, actually are insights into "responsibilities' I have. I'm inclined to agree that I don't have a "responsibility" to run from the lion, what I have is an evolutionarily advantageous survival mechanism, which opposing is statistically more likely to be to my disadvantage than my advantage, especially given the lack of necessity involved---I can survive without killing the lion today, without eating one more cookie, without busting a nut right now. In this line of thought it's helpful to consider oneself in dire conditions, or to have known criminals/addicts, so as to ask whether this "responsibility" shows up where one's feeling is that there is dire need to do something "immoral", or whether indeed we have a survival instinct here in favor of the immoral act, outweighing the 'avoid conduct likely to inspire violence response' instinct, such that the feeling of "moral responsibility" is to do the immoral thing, as if we have a "moral duty" to survive even at the expense of others (consider the mother ripping off the baker, stealing bread for her child)...i.e., such that we realize the term is a misleading one, as it does not apply to what we were using it for.

Do you think that the fact that human beings have the undeniable capability to question moral responsibilities means that they possess them?
definitely not.
Those who do, I'd be extremely intrigued to hear why they do think this wouldn't be a non sequitor, and what their reasoning is.

It seems to me that you encourage a more animalistic and instinctual method of living.
though I use such words above, that is a slight mischaracterization. The word 'instinct' itself is not necessarily a helpful one, as when we talk about the 'fight or flight instinct'---are we to 'obey our instinct and do two opposing actions'?, such a term is as if to say 'all things are instinct, and we can but pick between them, using reason and emotion. What I encourage is simply more of the former than the latter---making decisions in life based on emotion just isn't that satisfying, most people come to think. Emotion, though, is useful, but ultimately I think should be but the horse to which reason holds the reigns. Darwin hypothesized the evolutionary reason for emotion was to get us quickly into action...once in action we need to not remain a dumb bomb, but become a missile guided with reason. It's not that we're to rely on 'whatever we feel at first we should do, we should do', just that we should question all things, not just cultural restraints, but indeed emotional impulses, and moderate our action by our conclusions of their validity and worth. All that is a rather useless answer, perhaps it says more to note that the point isn't to be more "animal", but merely less deluded, which is to say that I don't take delusion (like morality) to be fundamental to what it is to be human, and thus to be without such things as morality is not to be less than human.

Can you explain how you believe you can compare diseases to human beings?
where I did so it was only in a limited context. we are both natural, we both cause damage to other organisms (indeed, all heterotrophs do, and if you want to talk about aerobic vs. anaerobic lifeforms on the early earth you could even talk about autotrophs polluting and ruining things for other lifeforms). I compare them merely to ask for a distinction to be made.

It would seem to me that our capability to assess moral judgment sets us apart.
as does our opposable thumb. the question though is 'how is one of our differences relevant to how our behavior should differ?' I'm not convinced that our intellectual faculty burdens us with shackles other lifeforms are free from. Again to the vegan ideas, I always like to ask them 'you say because I have a moral sense I should refrain from eating the fish, but suppose I do, and a bear further down the river eats the fish, what difference does this make to the fish? if none, then surely it is not for the fish's sake that I forgo a meal.' My question is this: if a bear is not concerned at the morality of mauling me, for what reason should I think my ability to question the morality of me shooting him (for whatever reason, out of whatever need or lack their of) is of concern to the bear, who himself does not expect me to conform to a particular standard of just war and legislation of self-defense?---if the animal I kill doesn't object to the morality of my killing him as I attack, why'm I to think morality should get in my way?

If humans have the ability to question such things, why shouldn't they act on them?
here I create no absolute. I can question all sorts of things, but I do not say 'you should never do x'. If you question x and want to act on x, and perhaps x is 'abstain from killing fish', then go for it... even if there isn't a carrot in sight, and we stipulate if you don't eat the fish you'll die, do it if that's what you want, you have no duty to abide by any of your instincts or feelings over any other of them.

Are we being tested (I don't think you believe this, since it would imply some kind of higher power)?
yea, I take that to be a sort of arrogance, the anthropocentric, 'us, of all things in nature, uniquely important and with a purpose to figure out and meet' fantasy.

Should we strive to actually take a step back in our philosophies and questions of morality for a simpler form of logic? Or do you believe that questioning emotions and morality is in itself a step backward?
we should always be willing to examine all things. We cannot say 'it would be a step back to examine God's existence, God exists, now let's get back to figuring out this 'trinity' thing'. We cannot take the foundations of our view for granted. But it isn't that I think we should just dismiss morality and go for something simpler...if morality is valid then there it is, and if it's complex, then so be it, all I think is that morality isn't valid, and that there are definitely more productive means of analysis and decision-making, which is merely fortunate, not a motive on which we, out of some agenda, reject moral points-of-view.

Shit, I'd love it if there were 72 virgins waiting for anyone who killed himself murdering a few people, how much easier that is than working 9-5, and how much more sex it reaps... but I merely reject it because there's nothing to show it is valid. Morality is in the same boat.
 
... but I merely reject it because there's nothing to show it is valid. Morality is in the same boat.

What do you mean by 'valid'? Is there something to show happiness or survival are valid?

Come to think of it, I'm just now of the opinion that morality is a pretty stupid word, it rolls up 'ends' or 'values' along with 'methods', when it seems to me things would be much clearer if they were seperate. I can understand validity in method, but not in value.
 
I find the use of bear hunting, fish and carrot eating to be interesting examples in moral considerations.

Humans higher level of reasoning gives us the ability to make moral decisions or considerations, not moral authority as the question was worded, rather moral ability. Which is how morals came to be and are prevalent. I would suggest that this is why the more advanced knowledge of a culture, the higher the level of morality. That is disregarding the personal application loop holes however.
 
What do you mean by 'valid'? Is there something to show happiness or survival are valid?

Come to think of it, I'm just now of the opinion that morality is a pretty stupid word, it rolls up 'ends' or 'values' along with 'methods', when it seems to me things would be much clearer if they were seperate. I can understand validity in method, but not in value.

happiness is self-validating.

some people claim survival is too, but their arguments for this fail as surely as those for us having a divine Christian purpose.
 
I find the use of bear hunting, fish and carrot eating to be interesting examples in moral considerations.

Humans higher level of reasoning gives us the ability to make moral decisions or considerations, not moral authority as the question was worded, rather moral ability. Which is how morals came to be and are prevalent. I would suggest that this is why the more advanced knowledge of a culture, the higher the level of morality. That is disregarding the personal application loop holes however.

non sequiter. but even if you want to flesh that out, it's then just argumentum ad populum - more people today agree with what you consider a 'higher' morality, therefore it must be higher. Don't forget that the more advanced knowledge of the culture in America the more Christians there have been throughout history...until now, when it's beginning to decline, which undermines the premise of a democracy=truth claim, which would have looked as valid as yours a decade or two ago, but for the logical fallacy in it, of course.
 
non sequiter. but even if you want to flesh that out, it's then just argumentum ad populum - more people today agree with what you consider a 'higher' morality, therefore it must be higher. Don't forget that the more advanced knowledge of the culture in America the more Christians there have been throughout history...until now, when it's beginning to decline, which undermines the premise of a democracy=truth claim, which would have looked as valid as yours a decade or two ago, but for the logical fallacy in it, of course.

Sounds like a cop out to me. Review of history or examination of cultures will indicate the more primitive the culture the lower the level of thought put into it. Your misinformed view of "Christian America" has you thinking all the currently imposed morals in this country came from them but thats not the case. In fact currently a good percentage of Christians as well as non believers or sceptics are sick and tired of the government and bleeding heart special interest groups telling us how to live our lifes and raise our children. This may in fact be leading more people to sway toward religion again, but I cant say for sure, it just seems to be more at the front with current political happenings.

Dont know where democracy=truth came from, might be a fallacy in logic. Im glad you have a grasp on that one. There is only one truth... did I, will I effect another persons life in a negative way ? Yes or No... only one answer, only one truth.

I do find the parallel as religion has declined in America so has the state of America to be interesting. Which happened alot further back than some may think.

Speaking of fallacies, theres no way the "fuck with me and Ill fuck with you" ideal had anything to do with the evolvement of morals, so we should revert back to this, until the eye for eye rule has rendered us all blind and we become concerned and begin creating morals and ethics again...... so long as its not done "in the name of God" maybe it will be accepted. :rolleyes:
 
I always viewed morals as being social constructs for a more peaceful co existence among the populous. I certainly agree with seditious that morality is not a valid form of decision making. In early times of small tribes and villages you needed to have some form of social morality to survive. I mean if you were to steal from your neighbors they'd probably kill you. I guess what I am getting at is that morality in many cases is an example of what can be more beneficial against what is detrimental to society.

I think for most people, without guidelines to act they are lost and worthless in life because they wouldn't have anyway of knowing whether what they are doing is going to cause positive or negative consequences because obviously many people lack foresight into their own actions.
 
What is the / your argument for happiness as 'self validating'?

that ever since Aristotle first said it there has been no argument against it which has stood up against it. it's a default.

it's rather like 'humans have souls'...no they don't, they have minds the evidence for which is ever growing stronger that they're a brain process. until there is an argument in favor of souls the brain-view is just the default because that's what makes itself apparent, and if it's correct then of course we're unable to defend a view which contradicts it, so how're we supposed to think of some sort of falsifiable hypothesis for it?