There are no gimmicks and there are no sellouts. Just stop.

[Black Winter Day]

I grow weary of this conversation. If you listen to the music that turns you on, everything else will work itself out naturally.

 

[NAD]

I was just talking to myself when I made the thread anyhow, didn't feel like opening Word.

 

[Hell Mike]

start/run/notepad

 

[General Zod]

Absolutely. Not only was Empire brilliant, but Queensryche was ALREADY EXPERIENCING TREMENDOUS SUCCESS due to Mindcrime before it. So how is it even possible that Empire was "selling out?" Answer: it wasn't.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion... even if it's completely wrong.

Although they had begun to realize commercial success, on their own terms, with "Eyes of a Stanger" and "I Don't Believe in Love" getting regular play on MTV, they still sold out with "Empire". And I wouldn't describe their success as "tremendous", as they were an opening band until "Empire" hit big.

I'm surprised anyone is even debating the point, to be quite honest. While "Empire" was a quality CD in terms of songwriting, it was also an obvious attempt to sell more discs. "Jet City Woman", "Another Rainy Night"? Come on now. Those songs are hardly "The Warning" or "The Needle Lies". For goats sake, what was the heaviest track on "Empire", "The Thin Line"? To this day, I remember my friends and I driving home from the record store the day "Empire" was released. We popped in the cassette, "Best I Can" started to play, and we all looked at each other as if to say, "What the hell is this shit?"

That disc was a complete departure for QR (which in and of itself is fine), but it was also an obvious attempt to sell more CDs (which is not fine).

If you don't think so, that's cool. But as I said, no one will never convince otherwise.

Zod

 

[Black Winter Day]

what is up with the correct capitalization?

i dunno. wanted to try it for a couple posts. i thought maybe it would make my posts seem more worthwhile. it didn't.

 

[NAD]

I see capital letters in your posts and I think someone has hijacked your account.

 

[Dick Sirloin]

i jesst peepepeed msyeldf czu i am teh firghetinteed.

 

[Black Winter Day]

Possibly.

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Although they had begun to realize commercial success, on their own terms, with "Eyes of a Stanger" and "I Don't Believe in Love" getting regular play on MTV, they still sold out with "Empire". And I wouldn't describe their success as "tremendous", as they were an opening band until "Empire" hit big.

I'm surprised anyone is even debating the point, to be quite honest. While "Empire" was a quality CD in terms of songwriting, it was also an obvious attempt to sell more discs. "Jet City Woman", "Another Rainy Night"? Come on now. Those songs are hardly "The Warning" or "The Needle Lies". For goats sake, what was the heaviest track on "Empire", "The Thin Line"? To this day, I remember my friends and I driving home from the record store the day "Empire" was released. We popped in the cassette, "Best I Can" started to play, and we all looked at each other as if to say, "What the hell is this shit?"

That disc was a complete departure for QR (which in and of itself is fine), but it was also an obvious attempt to sell more CDs (which is not fine).

If you don't think so, that's cool. But as I said, no one will never convince otherwise.

Zod

There is a big difference between "the band is a sellout" and "this band's album made more sales"
You CANNOT know if Queensryche chose to write more simple music in "Empire" JUST to make more money. Maybe they wanted to have a more simple approach to their music, after two albums that had amazing musical depth and huge high quality material. What you CAN see is that after their most succesfull album, they released their more difficult and less commercial one (Promised Land). A band that does that, cannot EVER be considered a sellout.

 

[J.]

What you CAN see is that after their most succesfull album, they released their more difficult and less commercial one (Promised Land). A band that does that, cannot EVER be considered a sellout.

Not so sure I agree with this in general. With this logic, Metallica could suddenly release RtL/MoP caliber material and all of a sudden their "sell-out" status would be lifted.

I'm not familiar with QR other than Empire (which was not too bad, but hardly something I care to own), so I can't go into depth about their music, but can't it be seen as selling-out when QR went back to writing "more difficult and less commercial" music after the success of Empire?

 

[MadeInNewJersey]

There is a big difference between "the band is a sellout" and "this band's album made more sales"
You CANNOT know if Queensryche chose to write more simple music in "Empire" JUST to make more money. Maybe they wanted to have a more simple approach to their music, after two albums that had amazing musical depth and huge high quality material. What you CAN see is that after their most succesfull album, they released their more difficult and less commercial one (Promised Land). A band that does that, cannot EVER be considered a sellout.

Shockingly, I agree 100% with IOfTheStorm here. I can't find the link, but I'm near certain I read that "Empire" was the result of DeGarmo & Tate's desire to write more simple songs and incorporate some of their non-metal influences (i.e. Pink Floyd). Which is why "Promised Land," perhaps their most inaccessible album (and fairly heavy ta boot) followed the commercially successful "Empire."

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Not so sure I agree with this in general. With this logic, Metallica could suddenly release RtL/MoP caliber material and all of a sudden their "sell-out" status would be lifted

RTL/MOP was music that Metallica played. Promised Land was something new and unique even for Queensryche. Metallica fans already know RTL/MOP music. Queensryche fans didnt ever listened to the music of Promised Land before. There is a difference between these occasions. Also the music of Promised Land is more difficult and with more depth than RTL/MOP (i didnt say BETTER, but very different).

but can't it be seen as selling-out when QR went back to writing "more difficult and less commercial" music after the success of Empire?

No, because Promised Land material was a totally innovative style for the band. It was difficult even for some of the old fans, and it was less metal than Empire. When you will listen to it , you will see what i mean.

 

[lurch70]

I still don't see how Empire can be considered a sell-out ... it was a very heavy and dark record me thinks.

I'm surprised anyone is even debating the point, to be quite honest. While "Empire" was a quality CD in terms of songwriting, it was also an obvious attempt to sell more discs. "Jet City Woman", "Another Rainy Night"? Come on now. Those songs are hardly "The Warning" or "The Needle Lies". For goats sake, what was the heaviest track on "Empire", "The Thin Line"? To this day, I remember my friends and I driving home from the record store the day "Empire" was released. We popped in the cassette, "Best I Can" started to play, and we all looked at each other as if to say, "What the hell is this shit?"

That's funny, Jet City Woman is one of my favorite QR tracks, pure atmospherics IMHO. So you are saying that you consider Empire a sell-out because there are a couple of chick song on it?

 

[IOfTheStorm]

Also this song (Jet City Woman) is about Geoff Tate's ex wife (i think so) who was an air-hostess. What kind of music would possibly fit to a song with that theme ? RFO music? ..

 

[Demonspell]

I wouldn't call Queensryche a sellout, even though there is clearly signs of commerciality in Empire and they would later strip themselves of almost everything that made them interesting beginning with New Frontier...of course, electing not to focus on metal isn't in itself a sellout, I'm sure they'd call it a maturing process or something.

 

[General Zod]

So you are saying that you consider Empire a sell-out because there are a couple of chick song on it?

Nope. I thought the whole CD was a total disappointment, with the exception of 2-3 songs.

Zod

 

[General Zod]

...I'm near certain I read that "Empire" was the result of DeGarmo & Tate's desire to write more simple songs and incorporate some of their non-metal influences...

Let's see if I have this right; Prog Metal band decides to write simple songs based on non-Metal influences. Keep in mind that this happened as the band hit their 30s and after their first taste of commercial success. Hmmm... I think we now have a definition for the term "sell-out".

Zod

 

[Black Winter Day]

so you are saying that once a band finds a certain style, they must always play that sort of music?

 

[General Zod]

so you are saying that once a band finds a certain style, they must always play that sort of music?

Certainly not. I feel that QR's sound changed on each of their first six releases. My problem was with the impidus behind the change that followed "Mindcrime".

I have always believed that it is a band's right to go in any musical direction that their desires take them, for whatever reason. I also believe it is a fan's right to choose to no longer support that band's musical choices.

Zod

 

[Black Winter Day]

what if their change in style was not based on commercial success but based on a real artistic interest in the new style? would that change your outlook on the music itself?