Thoughts on elitist "once it's popular it sucks" mentalities in the metal community.

[Thorn23TX]

I think Freak Kitchen has a lyric that is particularly à propos to this discussion:

"Play me your favourite tune
I’ll convince the world it’s junk
But if you listen to what I listen to
I will slip into a funk"

I don't particularly care how a person gets into the music (be it courtesy of Hot Topic, MTV or whatever) as long as they attend the concert to enjoy the actual MUSIC. Nothing pisses me off more than seeing people socializing at a concert rather than paying attention to (and respecting) the musicians on stage.

I'll admit I'm not as "metal" as I was in my younger days and that today my tastes vary greatly when it comes to music. However that is the by-product of being exposed to more styles as I've grown older and recognizing that there are indeed talented musicians outside of the metal community.

We all come from different backgrounds, experiences, cultures, etc., and should recognize that if we were all clones and listened to EXACTLY the same bands we'd be missing out on some really great music and some really great discussions...

I, for one, decided to attend my first ProgPower because I heard Evergrey was playing a headlining set and they didn't pass through Texas on their recent tour leg. I wasn't familiar with *ANY* of the other bands on the bill, but thanks to this board, and a fair amount of curiosity, I have picked up several new CDs in recent weeks. Now I am definitely looking forward to seeing almost all of the bands, and will give the ones that I haven't taken to so far a fair chance to win me over with their sets at the show.

It's all about keeping an open mind, my friends, and welcoming new people into our world - it's a pretty cool place to be.

 

[SkiBumMSP]

I'd like to throw in another little tidbit on here, seeing as how I've bitched about this constantly lately in my inner circle of close metalheads.

First and foremost, I fucking love Dragonforce. I becaue a fan through Sonic Firestorm, and love the new album, although I feel the earlier release is superior. Even with the Hot Topic/MTV2/Wal-Mart (who carries IR) boon, I still respect the hell out of this band.

I feel that Dragonforce didn't become mainstream, but the mainstream became Dragonforce.

But, there's a point I'd like to raise in what I fear could befomr the watering down of the music we've all come to know and love for years: The Label Rush.

Ah yes, the ol' "They become popular, now they are sell-outs" debate that I see come up in the metal circles now and again. Twas a thin line to tread upon. We all want to see these band become successful, but not at the expense of becoming "watered down for the masses".

First, I was in metal for a long, long time. I still remember spinning Judas Priest's British Steel album on vinyl all those years ago, as well as the soundtrack to Heavy Metal and many others. I am now 36, and still rock out to some serious metal to this day (although I tried it, but never could get into the death metal, though). I went through a long period of listening to hard rock (not necessarily metal), such as Styx, Rush, Pink Floyd, The Cars, Yes, and several others. But there where still a fair bit of metal in there as well, including some "hair metal", such as Twisted Sisters. I "re-discovered" "real" metal again, when I got sick of all the crap that is currently being played on the radio these days. When I first heard that one Stratovarious track on one of my DirecTV's "Music Choice" channels all those years ago, I was blown away, and knew I had to get more. What is this "alternative rock" bull-crap they have on radio these days? I was happy with the regular rock and metal! Why fuck do I need an "alternative"?. What's the fuck with this "nu-metal" crap? I was happy with the old metal!

But, I do have to agree with the above quoted statement. I'll admit that I was not a huge fan of DragonForce myself, but once I actually saw them at a show just this past May, I was very impressed. I did go and pick up the new Inhuman Rampage album. I did have Valley of the Damned for quite some time, though. I'll need to go back and get the Sonic Firestorm album as well. As long as it all don't go to thier heads and they continue to put out some kick-ass music, I don't see any reason why they should not get the publicity that they are now getting (and personally think they deserve). Hell, I am all for it if it gets some of this shit that is being played on the radio right now off the air and hear more kick-ass metal instead.

Also, how can I not love a band where I got to share a few drinks with after the show?:

I remember being there to past 2 in the morning just shooting the shit with Sam that night! It was friggan awesome, and these guys were such a blast to just hang out with! Like that is going to happen with Linkin Park or any of these other "nu-metal" bands! I'll admit, that is one reason why it is great to see these guys in such a small, intimit environment such as Jaxx in Springfield, VA. Not only that, it was a cheap ticket (only something like $15 that night if I remembered correctly - shit, you could hardly go to the movies these days for that cheap, let alone a live show with a band like DragonForce!) When bands like this do become popular, I do hope they don't forget what made them popular in the first place! It is because of moments like that is why I am also a big fan of them. Not only because of the music, but the chance to hang out with them and find out just how cool these guys actually are! All the more reason why I want to support them and see thier success grow.

I don't know how many of you have listen to Celladoor, but their deput is quite decent. Nothing excellent in the eyes of any longtime power metal fan, but pretty good listening nontheless. What I have an issue with is how out of nowhere, after the Dragonforce wave calms down just a tad, Metal Blade signs this band from Nebraska (WTF? An American Power Metal Band that's not Iced Earth? =D), and their owner gets an excutive producer credit on the album. Do you see what I'm hinting at here?

No, I haven't. I've never even heard of Cellador until one of my friends pointed them out to me and I saw them listed as an upcoming show at Jaxx. I guess I'll get to see what they are like come August 8th , as I already have a ticket (plus the ticket was only $12!). I've yet to listen to a single track they made. But hey, maybe this will prove that decent metal does still come from the US. But than again, having getting to spend an entire weekend with Odin's Court, I can certainly say that decent progressive metal does indeed come at least from the Baltimore/D.C. area!

 

[Meanmistreator]

While I agree with you for the most part, it's not as if "true" metal fans are much different. Most metalheads (not all) are into metal for a small timeframe, typically between the ages of 15-25, and then setsail for the sun. They "grow out of it" and that's almost as bad as the 'lemmings' IMO simply because it's all so disingenuous.

With regards to DragonForce, I don't know if genuine metal fans dismiss them simply because of their popularity / fan base etc. I think it's because most see their music as nothing more than average at best. The difference being, a comparison can be drawn against other better power metal bands whereas the "Hot Topic" crowd can't make that same comparison -- it's because they have no benchmark to compare against. To them, DragonForce is the only power metal band that exists.




Shouldn't surprise anyone. We can thank Metal Blade for 80% of all derivative metalcore releases. They jump on bandwagons left, right, and center -- and neither do they deny it. They're quite honest about needing to make $$ as a business, and I would like to believe that those $$ are fed back into the label to support underground artists such as Amon Amarth, King Diamond, Bolt Thrower, and Primordial.

They sure as hell never supported Fates Warning. I have never seen a greater band held down by a label in my life. They should been one the biggest bands in America, not Germany (nothing against Germany).

Oh and PS. People don't grow out of "Metal" when they get older, they listen to "Prog Metal"

 

[General Zod]

A very cool thread, with a lot of cool comments.

I'll occasionally let the type of crowd I expect at a show, determine if I go to the show. However, I never buy or refuse to buy CDs based on who else is buying them. In respect to the show thing... I'm an adult and I don't want to hang with a bunch of 16 year olds. I'm not saying there aren't some cool 16 year olds, but let's face it, they're 16.

I listen to what I like. There are CDs I listen to by Trivium, KSE, Lamb of God, Disturbed and Godsmack for which I've taken shit (not necessarily on this board). I don't care. I don't listen to this music to be a member of the Metal community. Though I have a great fondness for my Metal brethren and enjoy the sense of community within this genre, I was listening to Metal long before I had any idea such a community existed.

Zod

 

[Metaldrumz]

Someone said something similiar to me a few days ago about this subject when I said Dragonforce sucked.

I was like dont be fucking retarded. Thats certainly not the way I think. I thought Dragonforced sucked back when everyone was going apeshit for them at mp3.com. On top of that I cant stand Sonata Arctica, Rhapsody, and old Stratovarius for the same reasons. Uptempo redundant Power Metal with the same similiar melodies does squat for me.

Good music is good music, whether Hot Topic sells it or not. The problem is *some* of these bands once they get the mainstream exposure, start commercializing themselves, and forget what got them the recognition in the 1st place.

 

[Heavenly Call]

I don't think it matters how the exposure comes, what matters is how the new fans take it. Not everyone has an "older brother" that can play all these metal bands for them so, for some people, MTV/Hot Topic Sampler/iTunes/ whatever is their exposure. I'm well aware that for a large percentage of new listeners they will hear Dragonforce and think they are the only band like that and once the hype dies down they will move on and be done with it....but I think it's TOTALLY worth it for the smaller percentage who will hear that band, get hooked on the sound and work to find other bands like that. Before you know it, you have new progpower atendees in a couple of years.

That's the great thing about the metal community. Once you've become "established" in the community (by that I mean you can carry on a conversation, understand the sub-genres, and are informed about the music in general) no one cares how you were originally exposed to it.

Personal experience: My neighbor is 15 years old. Saw him outside cutting grass one day with an Aiden shirt on. Struck up a conversation about music in general and eventually took a look at his CD collection. Aiden, Avenged Sevenfold, Hawthorne Heights, Thrice, Coheed, Him...I swear I thought he had stolen the entire Hot Topic store...and of course, Dragonforce right there in the midst of that. When I asked him about Dragonforce his eyes lit up "You gotta hear these guys, they are so awesome...." THEN we pulled up my iTunes...a new world was opened. Several sampler CD's from me later, I learned that he purchased Helloween's Keeper I and Iron Maiden's Best of the Beast recently. I don't take any credit at all for this, I'm glad he discovered Dragonforce the way he did. There is some silver lining...

 

[SkiBumMSP]

To me, an old timer, these bands sound rather poor and semi-talented copies of something those above mentioned bands and many more Europower bands did back in the day in 90's. Just listen to Tolkki or Malmsteen play and you'll know what makes the difference. Speed isn't everything, emotion is.

Maybe it is a good thing that this kind of music is spreading in the USA, even over 10 years late, but then again, I'd rather see the original bands gain the honour that they deserve.

After going back and re-reading some of these posts in this thread, I have to agree with this. I remember listening to DragonForce's Valley of the Damned album, and thought, "this is cool, but it ain't no Stratovarius or Sonata Arctica!" Sonata Arctica, now there's a band that I'd love to see get greater recognition. Not only are these guys very talented musically, but man, are they an awesome bunch of guys to just hang out with as well. Looking forward to when they come back and play in the States again. But still, I do enjoy listening to DragonForce and found that I actually do like thier newest album quite a bit.

I just have a feeling that we will be seeing a bit of a "renaissance" in the metal here in the States over the next 5 years or so. All this "alternative rock BS" seems to starting to run its course. Opeth also seems to be starting to make some waves here in the State's as well. Will we see anything like it was in the 80's, when it seemed everybody and thier brother was playing metal (everything from Queensryche to Twisted Sisters to Poison)? How I remember my brother and I always cranking up the ol' Def Leppard album (on vinyl, no less!). Will be intersting to see what the music scene will be like in the next 10 years or so. Maybe it'll even marginalize all the (c)rap and hip-hop shit that everybody seems to be playing around here all the time as well (much how ultimately, it was metal that killed disco in the late 70's/early 80's).

 

[actordude]

I know this is a popular and heated topic so I'll throw my personal beef into it - the fact that a band like Dragonforce has hit the mainstream and become popular doesn't bother me so much......what DOES bother me is when a 14 or 15 year old kid tells me that "this new band Dragonforce is creating a whole new kind of metal". They have no idea or desire to look deeper into it and see the history of metal.....hell, even the history of power metal. Maybe it is because the media pushes and promotes what is "hot" at the moment? All I know is, for me, part of the fun and enjoyment of metal is trying new things and looking back and finding new bands, etc. This seems to be lost on the new generation of fans.......just my perception, mind you.

 

[Bryan316]

I'm not even gonna dare read this thread.

I'll simply say this:



I'm proud that Dragonforce has earned some help from the music industry and they're spreading their gimmicky cheesy goodness far and wide. That means one less Drowning Pool to listen to!

 

[urinalcakemix]

You have to also realize - that most people don't listen to metal, because they don't know it exists. Not many know where to find new music, other than radio, TV, and now- Myspace/AOL. Think about it this way. I'd like to hear a Rastafarian Turkish Groove Adult Contemporary Blues quintet, does it exist? Maybe, but I have no idea how the hell to find it. This is the way with most people - they don't know how to find these bands that exist- as they don't get the attention from these aforementioned mediums, making them difficult to find.

Cellador and Dragonforce got in on the Myspace/AOL promotions, so they were being exposed to millions of people each day, and that still only got them 10,000 albums sold on the first week. I think if some good metal acts got a push from the label, and got some radio airplay, some TV appearances, and an internet campaign, Im sure its not THAT farfetched to think that bands like Evergrey, Nevermore, Arch Enemy could be selling out large venues. Its not that the music isnt widely accessible, its the fact that the names aren't accessible.

Congrats to DF and Cellador (Who I don't see ANY of the hype in, let it be known. Cellador that is.), for cashing in on good marketing, and getting good exposure, and EXPOSING these kids who don't know any better than to accept what they hear on radio.

Since we're playing the lyric game too, I have one. Porcupine Tree - The Sound of Muzak:

The music of rebellion
Makes you wanna rage
But it's made by millionaires
Who are nearly twice your age

 

[Ramaries]

I for one would not like to see Metal become as popular as it once was. I prefer Metal in the more intimate venues that the underground allows for. Nevertheless, I realize it's not cool to wish for artists to keep starving, and that more money for bands is good for the industry.

I wouldn't mind if the sceen was raised to a subculture level from the underground. I think that would lead to more shows nationwide rather than just the typical Jaxx/BB King's dates, and slighty larger venues. Mid sized venues like Eathlink/Center Stage or your local civic center would be fine, but I'd really rather not watch a Metal concert from the nose bleed section of an arena or stadium again.

This I agree with, but more of a reason is how many bad bands come out to make money in a fad when something is popular. This will cause a dilution of the quality in any kind of music, and make it maybe look bad too.

 

[ashaman7122]

First, I was in metal for a long, long time. I still remember spinning Black Sabbath's British Steel album on vinyl all those years ago, as well as the soundtrack to Heavy Metal and many others.

I can remember sitting around spinning my copy of Priest's Paranoid album as well...that one totally kicked ass...!


Rock on!

 

[SkiBumMSP]

I can remember sitting around spinning my copy of Priest's Paranoid album as well...that one totally kicked ass...!

Rock on!

Yeah, I realized I made the same fuck-up in this thread as well. I went back and edited both of the posts where I fucked it up in both threads. Man, you guys are friggan evil!

 

[Diamond45]

I just have a feeling that we will be seeing a bit of a "renaissance" in the metal here in the States over the next 5 years or so. All this "alternative rock BS" seems to starting to run its course.

I fully agree with you Steve (and not just because we're friends outside of this forum too!).

"Alternative" or "Modern Rock" or whatever the f**k they want to call themselves, has run its course. The only new rock music that's any decent out there is Metal. I seriously think that Metal is coming back as the new "harder edged rock". Power-progressive-melodic metal is starting to appeal to the masses. Even this old fart (I'm 36 also) likes more of this music.

I just heard DragonForce's Inhuman Rampage album (you know I'm old when I say "album") and I got to say it does kick ass.

I knew that they were touring with OzzFest, but even that show is getting lame. Its good they're getting new blood because most of the other stuff (with the exception of Lacuna Coil) is a bunch of Crap. In fact, to make OzzFest even better - Ozzy should just stay home!

But getting back on topic - I agree with other posts. DragonForce didn't seek popularity - it found them. They're a good crossover band with those who like old-school metal (Iron Maiden, Metallica, Ozzy, etc.), classic rock, alternative, etc. Hence I expect you'll see more and more of this music in the next several years.

Whether or not Glenn wanted it to happen this way - but I think that his ProgPower series has really started to expose European metal to Americans.

Just my 2 1/2 cents.

Diamond Dave (also of Fredericksburg, VA)

 

[Pelata]

I'm very late on this thread, and admittedly have not read every post....BUT:

I don't care how popular something is...if I like it, I like it.

That said, I don't always feel like incumbent fans drop a band simply because they're more popular. Many times, the band does something to thier sound to get more popular and it alienates certain fans. The original fans call it a sell out, the band calls it a progression, and the newbies call it better...either way, things change and theres nothing anyone (band or fans) can do about it.

 

[TBJ]

I'm very late on this thread, and admittedly have not read every post....BUT:

I don't care how popular something is...if I like it, I like it.

That said, I don't always feel like incumbent fans drop a band simply because they're more popular. Many times, the band does something to thier sound to get more popular and it alienates certain fans. The original fans call it a sell out, the band calls it a progression, and the newbies call it better...either way, things change and theres nothing anyone (band or fans) can do about it.

Amen.