US Election 2004

metu

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Nov 21, 2002
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MI, USA
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Let's try to have a rational debate on the subject.

Please think and review before you post. Please don't insult people personally even if you have a prior beef. Our country needs serious and meaningful debates in every forum. When you disagree with someone, debate them point by point.

The whole reason we have free speech, free press, and free elections is so that we can have free, open, and civil debate. It's time to practice what we preach. It's time to use our great experiment the way it was meant to be used.
 
^^ Thanks for saying so. Political debates too often degenerate into partisan bomb-throwing contests.

I personally think that the US is in a much better state than what people perceive it to be. The economy is improving, we've made positive steps toward securing the nation, and we're (slowly but surely) on our way to helping Iraq be self-sufficient.

Unfortunately, many people still seem very pessimistic, and I'm scratching my head as to why. I'm afraid that media coverage has something to do with it (just my opinion).

Now I'm sure someone will fire back right at me and tell me why things are going so poorly (and I'm sure their answer will be four letters, beginning with "B" and ending in "ush"). That's fine, just tell me why you think that way.

Thanks!
 
The only reason the economy was bad though was because people thought it was bad. If people think the economy is bad they are not going to hire people and fire people more willingly, thus people will spend less money. Sort of off topic though.

I'm not going to say whether Bush is horrible or not because I've heard so much and I doubt half of it is true. I also doubt if Kerry is that much better if he is at all. However its ridiculous to waste a vote on Nader.
 
FauxPerspicacity said:
The only reason the economy was bad though was because people thought it was bad. If people think the economy is bad they are not going to hire people and fire people more willingly, thus people will spend less money. Sort of off topic though.

I'm not going to say whether Bush is horrible or not because I've heard so much and I doubt half of it is true. I also doubt if Kerry is that much better if he is at all. However its ridiculous to waste a vote on Nader.


Exactly! And why do the people think the economy is bad?


I'll leave the answer to you, as many different people have many different answers.
 
Thanks for the support, Barth.

I agree that we're not doing as badly as many people think. I don't think we're doing as well as many people think, either. The economy is doing alright and it always was as far as I'm concerned. I see our main economic problems to be long-term ones which come naturally from our transition from a subsidized industrial economy to an open technological one. I think that education and alternative fuels are the keys to this problem. I don't think that Bush or Kerry will do much, if any, good in this area.

It's a good point which both of you made that the economic slump was due to people thinking that the economy was bad. I agree that the media has played a significant part in fostering a negative view of the economy. Terrorism shook us up pretty well, too.

In regard to national security and foreign relations, I am one of those pessimists. I don't think that enough has been done to secure our borders. I still don't think that there's enough communication within law enforcement and intelligence gathering organizations. I think that insulting Europe while arming Pakistan is ridiculous. I think that not debating further in the UN while giving the weapons inspectors more time before invading Iraq was a huge mistake.

The way I see it, the priority in waging a successful war on international terrorist networks is through international cooperation. What has happened over the last couple of years is the exact opposite. This administration has isolated us in the world community. While we do have some very important countries with us in Iraq, the weight of the whole situation lies on our shoulders. Now, we MUST win in Iraq while almost no one seems concerned with Afghanistan where we have a broad-based coalition including NATO and the UN.

I support Kerry for president because I think that he can help to change many of these problems. Most of Europe will always hate Bush no matter what he does or how Iraq works. The governments who support his policies will keep losing elections and we'll become more and more isolated. The regions where hatred for the US runs deeper, like Central America, South America, and large portions of Asia, hate us far more because of Bush. I think that it's worth voting in Kerry for diplomatic reasons alone. I think that anti-Americanism will plummet as many people remember believing the US to be a beacon of freedom and opportunity. I think that there will be less resistance in Iraq and Afghanistan as there will be less distrust of a new leadership.

Also, I think that the Democrats will prove to be more capable at nation building as it works better with their approach to governing in general.

I don't think that Kerry is the answer to our nation's problems. I just think that he's a necessary short-term solution to what I believe to be a foreign relations crisis.

A vote for Nader is better than no vote at all. In the long-term, we do need to take this country back from the corporations. That's Nader's main platform. A vote for him makes the big guys think a little bit more about what he's saying.

Goat-ridden? :]
 
The problem with voting for Nader is that it takes away votes from Kerry, and people that vote for Nader are probably more anti-Bush than anti-Kerry.
 
metu said:
Thanks for the support, Barth.

I agree that we're not doing as badly as many people think. I don't think we're doing as well as many people think, either. The economy is doing alright and it always was as far as I'm concerned. I see our main economic problems to be long-term ones which come naturally from our transition from a subsidized industrial economy to an open technological one. I think that education and alternative fuels are the keys to this problem. I don't think that Bush or Kerry will do much, if any, good in this area.

It's a good point which both of you made that the economic slump was due to people thinking that the economy was bad. I agree that the media has played a significant part in fostering a negative view of the economy. Terrorism shook us up pretty well, too.

In regard to national security and foreign relations, I am one of those pessimists. I don't think that enough has been done to secure our borders. I still don't think that there's enough communication within law enforcement and intelligence gathering organizations. I think that insulting Europe while arming Pakistan is ridiculous. I think that not debating further in the UN while giving the weapons inspectors more time before invading Iraq was a huge mistake.

The way I see it, the priority in waging a successful war on international terrorist networks is through international cooperation. What has happened over the last couple of years is the exact opposite. This administration has isolated us in the world community. While we do have some very important countries with us in Iraq, the weight of the whole situation lies on our shoulders. Now, we MUST win in Iraq while almost no one seems concerned with Afghanistan where we have a broad-based coalition including NATO and the UN.

I support Kerry for president because I think that he can help to change many of these problems. Most of Europe will always hate Bush no matter what he does or how Iraq works. The governments who support his policies will keep losing elections and we'll become more and more isolated. The regions where hatred for the US runs deeper, like Central America, South America, and large portions of Asia, hate us far more because of Bush. I think that it's worth voting in Kerry for diplomatic reasons alone. I think that anti-Americanism will plummet as many people remember believing the US to be a beacon of freedom and opportunity. I think that there will be less resistance in Iraq and Afghanistan as there will be less distrust of a new leadership.

Also, I think that the Democrats will prove to be more capable at nation building as it works better with their approach to governing in general.

I don't think that Kerry is the answer to our nation's problems. I just think that he's a necessary short-term solution to what I believe to be a foreign relations crisis.

A vote for Nader is better than no vote at all. In the long-term, we do need to take this country back from the corporations. That's Nader's main platform. A vote for him makes the big guys think a little bit more about what he's saying.

Goat-ridden? :]


Fascinating.

Excellent points - all of them. I'm glad to hear that you think more needs to be done in terms of national security. But do you think Kerry is the right man for that job?
The foreign relations ordeal is another lurking question. You made a good point about the US as a nation somewhat factioning off from some other countries. But which is better - an elected official who makes decisions and enacts laws according to what other nations think of us (which some people might see as appeasement, or just downright pandering), or an elected official who sticks to their beliefs and acts on them, no matter what anyone else thinks, because he/she thinks that they're doing what is right?

I won't lie - my vote will be for Bush. But it's nice to see someone who doen't automatically fall into the hate-filled vitriol that seems to be showering the President on a daily basis.
 
Thanks again. Yes, this is very refreshing. :]

I've got a friend who refuses to vote because he sees Bush and Kerry as two heads of the same monster. I argue that if he refuses to vote for either, he should vote for Nader. At least vote. Last time a friend of mine and I wrote in McCain.

For border security and internal intel, I don't see a difference between Bush and Kerry. Kerry wouln't pull back on those programs because he would be hoping for reelection. I doubt Bush will spend more on them.

I understand and agree that our President shouldn't be... Europe's bitch, so to speak. I respect Bush very much for doing what he thinks is right and I actually think that he is doing just that. I think that he's being used by those around him, though. I don't want a president who will kiss ass all over the globe and ask for handouts. I hope that Kerry won't do that. Some folks say he would, but he's gonna be lookin' for a second term. We sort of have him by the balls that way. If he pulls us out of Iraq or in some other way ruins it, he doesn't have a chance at a second term. If Bush wins, we got nothin' on him.
 
No, I don't think Hillary can afford to wait that long, if she's going to run it will definitely be in 2008 or not at all (obviously that would be difficult if Kerry wins this year though). However, the best she can hope for is to gather enough support to be on the ballot for vice president as the US isn't ready to vote in a female president. I was disappointed that Elizabeth Dole never made a run for vice president. If she waits until 2012 she won't have any looks left to help her get votes and I think that would hurt her, not that she'd be a spring chicken in 2008 either.

Barth Vader said:
A Kerry second term? I shudder at the thought. :grin:

I dunno...2 Kerry terms....do you REALLY think that Ms. Rodham Clinton will wait until 2012 to make her run to finally return to the White House?
 
I'd also vote Libertarian if there was a good candidate running too.

But between the three (Bush, Kerry, and Nader), I'd vote for Kerry. I don't like either Kerry or Bush, but I dislike Kerry less than Bush!:p Nader would get my vote, but that's more like a wasted vote, since there's no way in hell he'd ever win.

I'm not old enough to vote yet (I'm turning 17 in a week). I really wish that I could vote.
 
Barth Vader said:
A Kerry second term? I shudder at the thought. :grin:

I dunno...2 Kerry terms....do you REALLY think that Ms. Rodham Clinton will wait until 2012 to make her run to finally return to the White House?

It won't stop him from trying.
 
Theredintheskyisours said:
I'd also vote Libertarian if there was a good candidate running too.

But between the three (Bush, Kerry, and Nader), I'd vote for Kerry. I don't like either Kerry or Bush, but I dislike Kerry less than Bush!:p Nader would get my vote, but that's more like a wasted vote, since there's no way in hell he'd ever win.

I'm not old enough to vote yet (I'm turning 17 in a week). I really wish that I could vote.

I'm just curious...maybe you could humor one of us older, jaded folk.

Why is it that you dislike Bush so much? And I'm talking about credible answers, not things like "Because he's a warmongering cowboy!" It would be interesting to hear a younger person's point of view on this. I just got done with student teaching and it's astounding how many kids hate Bush but don't really know why. My opinion (JUST my opinion!) is that the overall mileau of the public school system has something to do with it.
 
metu said:
It won't stop him from trying.


Indeed. I'm interested to see how the debates will play out. Bush is sometimes embarassingly bad at formal speech but (in my opinion) is very effective when it comes to "just you and me" kind of talking. I also think that (again, just my opinion) Kerry is pretty much the opposite.


But anyway...I'll stop talkin' out of my ass now...