Ways to make digitally recorded guitars more analog, with digital tools?

[Erkan]

*fap fap fap fap fap fap*

...

Oh, hi there! Didn't see you had clicked on my thread so soon already, sorry 'bout that.

My latest (and first) attempt at a solo project (Link is here) was very dry and pretty harsh. I knew pretty much nothing when I first joined this forum, and I read like a crazy bitch and I managed to make a little project on my own. Now I feel the hunger to further explore recording and mixing techniques and I already have a goal for my next project:

Since my previous project was extremely dry and with pretty harsh sounding guitars (read crappy), I want to do something completely of the opposite in the upcoming one. I want to make a fat... no HUGE sound, full, thick and still smooth with lots and lots of analog feel over the whole mix.

So, I would like to ask here and see if anyone has any great tips they've got lying around, on how to make digitally recorded guitars to sound more analog and thick.

Things I came to think of myself today f.ex:

- Try adding chorus VERY SLIGHTLY on the default guitar sound on the entire mix.
- Try adding decently strong reverb with a very fast decay to sort of give it big space but without making it too apparent (f.ex when the guitar abruptly stops, you don't want to actually hear the reverb tail)
- Try throwing something like a PSP Mix Saturator on the guitar tracks and crank up the Bass Warmth and possibly the HF-exciter pretty high, and adjust the guitar EQ to remove excess bass and highs. Maybe this'll warm them up?

And so on and so on... tips for anything goes really, doesn't have to specifically be guitars, all tips for big, thick, full sounds are welcome, for all instruments.

I'm really looking forward to my next project. I've decided to use the synths more in the songs and really make them a part of the music (getting a midi-clav next month to play them for real instead of programming them). I've also decided to experiment with skipping the bass guitar and go with a bass synth and run it through a bass amp sim and play the bass via keyboard instead. Really curious on how everything's gonna sound... considering I'm recording the majority of the things in digital ways, but aiming for an analog-ish, big, thick sound. Gonna be interesting and fun I hope!

Thanks in advance guys!

 

[Glenn Fricker]

try "search"


That and a few basic tips:

Lower your gain

Boost with an overdrive pedal. Max volume, no distortion.

Work on your mic technique.

Track your rhthym guitar 4 times.

Don't fuck around with reverb, exciters or any of that crap.

EQ, and maybe a little multiband compression in the 100-400hz mud zone. That's all you need for processing.

Use a real amp & a cabinet loaded with vintage 30s!

 

[Ermz]

You really can't have it both ways. If you want analogue sound then you will want to be using outboard gear. There are some ok tape/saturators around like DUY Dadtape, Massey Tapehead and some other ones I forget about, but there are only a few that really give you the desirable analogue/tape qualities, and even those don't quite get there.

The guys here seem to like the freeware transformer-style saturator, TesslaSE, which is freeware. Might want to give that one a shot.

As Oz said though, you want to refine your actual recording methods before doing any of this, and make sure you have good converters and pres (cheap converters will make your stuff sound brittle, sterile and cold, whereas cheap pres will make it sound flat).

 

[Morgan C]

I think he's talking about making digital guitars (ie. Revalver, Pod) sound more like a mic'd guitar amp.

 

[Erkan]

I think he's talking about making digital guitars (ie. Revalver, Pod) sound more like a mic'd guitar amp.

Yea, as always, when I write stuff in the evening I'm assuming everybody understands what I'm trying to say, haha.

But yeah to be clear, my guitar recording is pure digital, except for... well... uh, the actual guitar and the straight signal path in to the Mackie mixer pre-amp, then into the M-Audio DeltaLT card. As you can see, I don't have $5 billion dollar worth of outboard gear to run my signal through. Yes yes, I know some of you want to just rip me up now and say "Hey you stupid fuck, you don't have analog gear and you want to have analog sound? What the fuck man?", but it's not like I'm counting on getting a real old school wall of sound saturated guitar type sound, I'm just looking for a technique to warm that son of a bitch cold ass sterile Revalver up a bit (even though Revalver is really a great amp-sim, it's still pretty cold and sterile).

Don't think I'm asking here just because I'm too much of a lazy ass that won't experiment himself, it's just that there is still a whole 4 weeks left before my rehearsal place is ready to be "habitated" again, and in the meanwhile I want to figure out as many things as possible to make my next project "better" sounding than my first one. And I have no gear at home

Basically... I know there are all kinds of saturators and exciters and shit that you can slam on a recorded guitar track and hope it helps, but I was kind of thinking if anyone has a method... or an idea... or a theory, that is completely fucking other-worldy, that will alter the guitar sound a lot. For example take quad tracking... imagine a bedroom guitarist recording his very first song. He's a beginner and doesn't know about quad tracking so he records one, and only one guitar and keeps it in the middle of the stereo image. Next day he learns about quad tracking and applies that to his song. The result? He goes "Whoa what the fuck, I didn't know this technique existed, the difference is HUUUGE!".

So if there is a technique that is "the next step" after multi-tracking, that somebody has figured out and is willing to talk about it, it'd be cool.

 

[Erkan]

As Oz said though, you want to refine your actual recording methods before doing any of this, and make sure you have good converters and pres (cheap converters will make your stuff sound brittle, sterile and cold, whereas cheap pres will make it sound flat).

I've read a lot about converters and how important they are. Since I haven't A/B listened between different converters, and since I'm on a limited budget AND using an M-Audio Delta1010LT, maybe I'm just doomed to fuck with sterile, cold and flat sound on everything I do?

That certainly kills a lot of my artistic inspiration and motivation... but I'll not give up on trying to make the most out of what I have, even if it doesn't get me atleast towards the analog type sound I feel I need to have on my next project.

 

[Glenn Fricker]

In that case here are home helpful tips:

1) Get a job

2) Save your money for a 5150/Mesa cab combo

3) buy an sm57

4) buy an FMR RNP


Amp sims have come a very long way in the last few years, but there's no substitute for the real deal. Kazrog's recabinet is impressive as all hell, but sounds better while using a real amp. You might want to take a look at it in case the 4 steps above are out of the question.

 

[wishtheend]

^ +1 to the real amp. If you aren't going to be playing live with it, just build a dummy load so you can use the real amp and use impulses. At least will get you part way there.

 

[Erkan]

1) Get a job

That's so fucking out of the question! No way man!

... no seriously, I'm still a student so

I do have an SM57, among other mics, and we've got a 5150 that's kinda not so healthy all the times but... yea, I need something to put between the 5150 head and the soundcard so it doesn't blow the shit up. I guess that's where all the talk about Hot Plate comes in? Pretty expensive... hmm, if all it does is putting up resistance against the signal, then one should be able to build one themselves.

Anyhow, I hadn't seen the Recabinet stuff so thanks for that tip, the clip on the page sounded really heavy but I guess it was no amp-sim action there.



To wishtheend: Oh no I'm not gonna play it live, I'm not even a guitarist really I'm mainly a drummer, guitar comes second. Maybe this fact helps understanding that I don't wish to spend so much money on stuff that I normally wouldn't use. But if that's what it takes to get away from the harsh amp-sim sounds, if only by little, then I guess that's what I need to do, which will never happen so I'll just continue with cold ass sound.

Can't be worse than eating cold food....

 

[Uladyne]

What exactly are you using to record at the moment? I will agree with everyone else on the fact that a real amp is loads better than a modeler, and I wish I had a 5150 or something nice to plug into my marshall cab that is sitting right next to me, so I could experiment with micing it with some of the mics I have on my shelf, but money is a factor, so I have to deal with what I have.

That being said, I'm totally pleased with what I'm getting from my Podxt. It's taken me probably days (literally, if all the hours were added up) of tweaking to get it sounding the way I like, and in all honesty I actually prefer some of the tones I've been getting on my Pod over some tones from real amps on commercial releases. If anyone wants to hang me for that statement, whatever, fuck it. Tone is subjective. You can have the best amp in the world, and the best equipment to capture it, but without assloads of trial and error, you'll be hard pressed to get what you want from it.

My advice is to listen to your favorite tones with the highest amount of detail you can muster, and tweak away with what you have. Trial and error is the best way to get to where you want to go. Not having a real amp is by no means a dead end. It can be pretty limiting if you don't have the best gear, but it's all about squeezing out every last drop of quality from what you have that you can.

Also, make sure to record DI tracks so you can mess with your tone in the mix if you aren't already. It can be extremely helpful to have a bunch of tracks recorded, and run a dry guitar track back through your amp (or pod or whatever), and tweak the tone against the drums and bass, even if they're rough tracks. That way you can see where things might clash, and how your tone sits relative to the rest of a mix, before actually putting the tone to tape and being forced to use heavy EQ edjustments to make things sit right. With time this may not be necessary because you'll already know what you need and don't need from an amp to get what you want, and you'll be able to plug in, turn a few knobs and get a slamming tone that fits the mix within minutes, without even having anything else tracked. I'm still trying to get to that point myself.

Also, Experiment experiment experiment. That's one advantage you have with a modeler. You can stay up all night fucking with shit without pissing people off, as long as you're careful with headphones if you're forced to use them. In the long run, the experimenting you do with your modeler can help you immensely when you have the opportunity to mic a real amp. All the time you spend toying around will help you develop your ear, and give you an idea of what to listen for and what to stay away from when using a real rig. Also, being a drummer, make sure you wear earplugs when you practice!

K rambling over. Sorry for the large chuck of your life I stole if you actually read this whole thing.

 

[006]

You won't get an analog sound with all digital equipment. Ever.

That's like an oxymoron.

Also, I really don't think you can a great deal about mic'ing a cabinet and dialing a real tube amp properly to record by playing with a POD or similar modeler. Since you aren't actually mic'ing a cab up, listening to how the cab sounds mic'ed and tweaking the tube amp...you can't get experience doing it. True, it will teach you something, but mostly it will teach you how to dial an amp modeler, IMO.

~006

 

[Uladyne]

You won't get the experience of messing with a real amp, that's obvious, its a world of difference, but it will help you to know what to look for mix wise if you get a tone you like from your modeler is all I'm saying. I'm just talking about training one's ear with the tools available. Kinda like mixing Drumkit From Hell drums. It won't give you experience mic'ing a real kit, but it will help you immensely in letting you know what to look for when you finally get the chance.

 

[Seizure.]

Running a pod through a nice tube comp or hitting something like a 1176 hard without compression (much..) wors wonders for pod tones aswell.

 

[fooman]

If you can't get your hands on a real amp then you might just be struggling at reach what you hear on your fav tunes with no way of getting there. I've heard some 'decent' tones from a POD-recorded guitar, but you KNOW it's a POD. Perhaps it's the production on the song as a whole, but the guitar usually doesn't have much vibe to it when compared to a real amp.

I own a Marshall head & Mesa cab combo. which is not your typical metal combination but it gets the job done for a lot of the heavy bands I work with. I've worked with a Mesa TR as well, but it's not mine so it's rare I'm able to borrow it.

One of the big keys is also the bass. I use the Ampeg SVX amp sim when I can't convince the band to do what they can to get a really good bass amp, and I've never had complaints.

+1 on the RNP and 57.
I guess beg, borrow, steal an amp and see if you agree with everyone here. If you do, then you'll be sad but at least know what you gotta do to get the tone in your head onto tape (or hard disk!).

 

[jrt12]

wanted a ask a quick question moonlapse brought up earlier. something to the effect that cheap mic pre's or converters will make the whole mix soudn flat no matter what you do. i'm not a pro, just working at home... i wont even insult the rest of you by calling it a home studio. i'm currently working with an Mbox (the first one), and wonder if the hardware on this (input or converters) are gonna affect the sound negatively, no matter what i stick in front of it? i dont have a budget to go out and get a new digi003 or whatever, so am i doomed to a flat, cold and sterile sound?

 

[Metaltastic]

No, not at all - I've heard amazing sounds recorded with crap preamps and converters; it may sound "flat" and "cold" directly compared to something recorded with Neves and Lavry's, but as long as the source material is good, you're using a decent mic, and the position is set, all better preamps and converters are gonna do is just enhance something that's already good. Better interface stuff (as I'll henceforth be calling it) can't make a bad tone good, and most of the time bad interface stuff can't make a good tone bad (unless it's like a super noisy preamp)

 

[Erkan]

What exactly are you using to record at the moment? I will agree with everyone else on the fact that a real amp is loads better than a modeler, and I wish I had a 5150 or something nice to plug into my marshall cab that is sitting right next to me, so I could experiment with micing it with some of the mics I have on my shelf, but money is a factor, so I have to deal with what I have.

That being said, I'm totally pleased with what I'm getting from my Podxt. It's taken me probably days (literally, if all the hours were added up) of tweaking to get it sounding the way I like, and in all honesty I actually prefer some of the tones I've been getting on my Pod over some tones from real amps on commercial releases. If anyone wants to hang me for that statement, whatever, fuck it. Tone is subjective. You can have the best amp in the world, and the best equipment to capture it, but without assloads of trial and error, you'll be hard pressed to get what you want from it.

My advice is to listen to your favorite tones with the highest amount of detail you can muster, and tweak away with what you have. Trial and error is the best way to get to where you want to go. Not having a real amp is by no means a dead end. It can be pretty limiting if you don't have the best gear, but it's all about squeezing out every last drop of quality from what you have that you can.

Also, make sure to record DI tracks so you can mess with your tone in the mix if you aren't already. It can be extremely helpful to have a bunch of tracks recorded, and run a dry guitar track back through your amp (or pod or whatever), and tweak the tone against the drums and bass, even if they're rough tracks. That way you can see where things might clash, and how your tone sits relative to the rest of a mix, before actually putting the tone to tape and being forced to use heavy EQ edjustments to make things sit right. With time this may not be necessary because you'll already know what you need and don't need from an amp to get what you want, and you'll be able to plug in, turn a few knobs and get a slamming tone that fits the mix within minutes, without even having anything else tracked. I'm still trying to get to that point myself.

Also, Experiment experiment experiment. That's one advantage you have with a modeler. You can stay up all night fucking with shit without pissing people off, as long as you're careful with headphones if you're forced to use them. In the long run, the experimenting you do with your modeler can help you immensely when you have the opportunity to mic a real amp. All the time you spend toying around will help you develop your ear, and give you an idea of what to listen for and what to stay away from when using a real rig. Also, being a drummer, make sure you wear earplugs when you practice!

K rambling over. Sorry for the large chuck of your life I stole if you actually read this whole thing.

Of course I read it all man, I'm yearning for more knowledge

Good read, lots of fact even though I might regard it as "negative" since you're saying I won't reach my goal with amp modelers, but I don't feel any less motivated at all. It's good to know all this.

About the way I record, well all I'm using is a cheap Yamaha Strat-copy guitar which is plugged in to the pre-amp of my Mackie, and there I peak the signal up as much as I can without clipping, then it goes into my Delta1010LT soundcard and then gets recorded in Ableton Live.

What I did on my last project was to record the guitars on a separate project which contained the mixdown of the drums. Then I mixed the guitars down so I didn't need to run Revalver on the main mix since it would kill my CPU to run 4 of them at the same time, and then I took the bounced tracks in to the mix and continued doing little processing there. Not much needs to be done to amp-sim guitars when it comes to dynamics though, since they're pretty undynamic so I just did some EQ etc.

That's about it I guess, as far as my recording "technique". I didn't quad track though, so I'm gonna do that next time hopefully. That should give me the thickness I want atleast.

Edit: About the cheap Yamaha, after the project was done I tested my guitar sound with a PRS that a friend bought, which cost about 3000$. The difference was extremely small between the two guitars, I was shocked. Even he admitted that the difference in sound was not worth the money, but he said it's more about the feel of the guitar and yada yada, which I don't give a shit about since all that matters is sound so...

 

[siegfried]

I recommend to grab any HW guitar preamp like engl e530 or sansamp psa1. They are very cheap used. Then apply the impulses. And my personal humble tip, but it is probably not for you because this thing is extremely pricey- try Genwave EQ plugin. I was very very impressed how this beast can smooth the harsh sound of my sansamp and make it so much more "organic" and "warm", but not in that cheap "exciter/instant digital warmer/saturator/...crappy way... I still preffer clean eq on sansamp tracks, because I like its "industrial-like" character, but if I want something warmer, I´ll use Genwave EQ (but it is too much expensive for me).

 

[Uladyne]

Dang I'd like to get my hands on that Revalver shit. I'm broke as a joke though, so I'm stuck with what I have for now. Plus I'd love to save up for a real 6505, but damn bills keep getting in the way. Argghh!

Since you're processing your DI track "In The Box", I kinda doubt your converters or preamp are much of your problem. I would think that all of the processing that revalver is doing would at least mask most artifacts inherited by crappy pres/converters. Most of the "digitalness" you're hearing is probably a result from revalver's processing. I'm sure better quality pres/converters would yield somewhat of an improvement, but I'm thinking your disatisfaction is more likely due to the tone you're getting from the modeler itself. I'd say keep on tweaking, and perhaps over time you'll end up surprising yourself by stumbling upon a tone you like, or at are satifisfied with until you can get your hands on an amp.

Like others have mentioned, if you can get your hands on a decent amp and an sm-57 for a day you can experiment with that and see if you can get something more satisfying. If so, you know what you need to. Either get an amp or try to settle for the best tone you can achieve with your modeler. I would venture to think that your preamp and converters are just fine for recording the way you are, and better converters wouldn't yield much of an improvement. The amp modeler is most likely your weakest link, not the pres/converters. I think the pres/converters would play a much bigger role when you start mic'ing a real amp, as the signal won't be going through as drastic of a change in the box, and the "imprint" inherited from the pres/converters will remain much more intact. Just my uneducated opinion.

 

[colonel kurtz]

Dang I'd like to get my hands on that Revalver shit

the demo's free, bro...you can't save presets and it hisses every 30 seconds, but at least that's something