What do you think I should do? (Guitar recording pre-amps)

[eʍʍy]

Right now I own a 5150.
Problem is it's just too loud.

In order to get it sounding even decent it has to be so loud I can't really do much with it. I don't (nor do I plan on) getting a fancy studio with a soundroom and the sort.

I know there are some alternatives like an attenuator, but aren't those expensive?
Haven't tried going direct with it. I think I need a dummy load.

I don't really want to invest more money in it.
Been thinking of selling it.
I barely even play it, let alone record with it.


I don't mind using amp sims and impulses, but at the same time a step-up would be nice.
I was looking into some of the recording preamps out there - mainly the Triaxis and the Recto recording pre-amp.

Any thoughts on the two?

Do you think I should sell the 5150 and use one of those (or any others you know of and suggest) instead?
Or is there anything I should try doing with the amp first to get around the ow-my-precious-ears problem?

 

[Sloan]

Take the power tubes out, plug it into a speaker. BAM - 5150 recording preamp.

 

[viralz]

Would be much cheaper to buy a loadbox then a triaxis.

 

[hsnyder]

Or you could trade for my VHT GP3... If you want. Thing kicks ass. Pair it up with kalthallen cabs or the like..

 

[MatrixClaw]

Just run a cable from the "Preamp Out" on the back of the 5150 directly into your interface, and run an impulse over it...

 

[Flow Of Time]

Just run a cable from the "Preamp Out" on the back of the 5150 directly into your interface, and run an impulse over it...

But then the sound is still coming trough the cab.

 

[hsnyder]

The trouble with recording amps is that attenuators can really only do so much. doesn't matter if your amp is ripping loud, but if you attenuate it down to be "quiet" then chances are your speaker cab is going to sound like crap anyways. If you feed a 4x12 rated for 240 watts with 1 watt of power (and even that by the way is loud enough to piss off neighbours in an appartment). Then each speaker is being driven by a quarter the total current... High power speakers like the V30 just weren't really designed to be used like that and as a result they won't respond well in those circumstances.

Now there are alternatives like the Palmer units, The torpedo, the units that TheWinterSnow has developed, other dummy loads, etc. Those are for recroding amps for use with impulses. These are good choices and there have been some really good results gotten with them. However, There are a number of things going on when a tube amp interacts with a speaker that aren't simulated by all of these. TheWinterSnow and I are actually working on some plugins to use along with dummy loads and impulses that address some of the things going on in a real cab and mic situation that an impulse and resistive or even inductive load doesn't simulate, but it won't be released for a while.

Then theres the option of using plugins for your tone. I'm not a fan of this route so I won't comment for fear of presenting a biased opinon

The final option is an outboard preamp - anything from a rectifier recording pre to an axe fx. There is much information about the axe fx available on here so i'll talk about the actual tube units. If you're after "the recto sound" I wouldn't recommend getting the rectifier recording pre, and here's why: A key element in the recto sound is actually the power section, specifically the lack of negative feedback in red / modern mode. If you have a rectifier recording pre, you really will need to use impulses which were made through a rectifier power stage if you want to emulate that sound (even that by the way... you'd be better off with a nebula program, if one exists). I can't say much about the triaxis cause I've never heard it in person. You might want to consider the ENGL e530, too. They have the advantage of not being called "rectifier". In other words, they don't have as much to live up to, and you're less likely to be dissapointed because you don't have the reference of a full dual rec that you're subconsciously hoping for when you go for the rectifier recording pre. On that note, by the way, preamps will ALWAYS sound different from heads. Both sound GOOD, but they WILL be DIFFERENT. And I need to stop using CAPS. Anyways as I mentioned last night I also have a Fryette / VHT GP3 that I'm selling cause I'm in the opposite situation from you - I record with cabs now - and I'd be willing to trade or sell it to you if you're interested. VERY feature packed preamp - great for live use too. The cool thing about the GP3 is it actually has one 12AX7 stage arranged in some sort of a power tube configuration. I dont know if its a phase inverter or a genuine single ended output stage, but the point is you can use the master volume on the unit and the dynamics control to get some of the effect of amp crankage. This has the benefit of also being able to drive a speaker (you can plug it into a cab with no poweramp for bedroom volume noodling), but it also has two more major benefits as well. First, it means that you care less about the impulses you use. If you find one that wasn't made with a tube power amp, just fiddle with the dynamics and mastervolume until it sounds right. Second, it means that in a pinch you can use a solid state preamp in a live situation and still have some of the feel of a tube amp. Again, not perfect, but nice to have that option.

 

[eʍʍy]

Thanks for the posts all.

Take the power tubes out, plug it into a speaker. BAM - 5150 recording preamp.

Anymore info on this?
Never messed with amps so the last thing I want to do is end up blowing something up.

Now there are alternatives like the Palmer units, The torpedo, the units that TheWinterSnow has developed, other dummy loads, etc. Those are for recroding amps for use with impulses. These are good choices and there have been some really good results gotten with them.

Sounds like something that would be worth trying out.

However, There are a number of things going on when a tube amp interacts with a speaker that aren't simulated by all of these. TheWinterSnow and I are actually working on some plugins to use along with dummy loads and impulses that address some of the things going on in a real cab and mic situation that an impulse and resistive or even inductive load doesn't simulate, but it won't be released for a while.

:Spin:

Then theres the option of using plugins for your tone. I'm not a fan of this route so I won't comment for fear of presenting a biased opinon

While I've heard and even managed to achieve some pretty great sounding results with them, I would sort of like a step-up.

The final option is an outboard preamp - anything from a rectifier recording pre to an axe fx. There is much information about the axe fx available on here so i'll talk about the actual tube units. If you're after "the recto sound" I wouldn't recommend getting the rectifier recording pre, and here's why: A key element in the recto sound is actually the power section, specifically the lack of negative feedback in red / modern mode. If you have a rectifier recording pre, you really will need to use impulses which were made through a rectifier power stage if you want to emulate that sound (even that by the way... you'd be better off with a nebula program, if one exists).

Can't say I'm actually after the Recto sound - it just caught my attention since it seemed to be a quality recording pre. As for impulses, what about the Catharsis (Ryan) ones?

I can't say much about the triaxis cause I've never heard it in person. You might want to consider the ENGL e530, too. They have the advantage of not being called "rectifier". In other words, they don't have as much to live up to, and you're less likely to be dissapointed because you don't have the reference of a full dual rec that you're subconsciously hoping for when you go for the rectifier recording pre. On that note, by the way, preamps will ALWAYS sound different from heads. Both sound GOOD, but they WILL be DIFFERENT. And I need to stop using CAPS.

I sort of like the idea of the recording pres because I wouldn't have to deal with an amp at all.
But my main concern is if they'll sound better than what plugins can do. It'd be disappointing to set it all up and get no improvement.
I'm really not sure what to expect. I've heard some examples that sounded great but seem to often be done with a power amp and cabinets

Thanks for all the information you posted

Anyways as I mentioned last night I also have a Fryette / VHT GP3 that I'm selling cause I'm in the opposite situation from you - I record with cabs now - and I'd be willing to trade or sell it to you if you're interested.

Okay. I'll be sure to look into that.

 

[hsnyder]

Be careful with the pulling power tubes thing... This isn't always safe. I can do the math for you sometime this weekend but rest assured that this will change (raise) the voltage on the preamp tubes

 

[Sloan]

I have never had a problem running an amp without power tubes, SO FAR.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...-tubes-interesting-facts-about-tube-amps.html



you could keep the power tubes in and run the fx loop out to your pc and use impulses too.

 

[drew_drummer]

I wouldn't pull the tubes. It's going to be safer just to get a loadbox and run the fx loop out into the PC.

 

[hsnyder]

Well or just leave it plugged into the speaker with the master all the way down

 

[eʍʍy]

Don't have a master. And turning any other volumes down effects the preamp input
Going direct with impulses actually sounded pretty fair, but the speaker volume is still there of course.

At this point I'm not sure if it'd really be worth spending more money on a loadbox

 

[hsnyder]

dummy jack in the return?

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I have never had a problem running an amp without power tubes, SO FAR.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...-tubes-interesting-facts-about-tube-amps.html

God that thread was full of some false information. When you pull two tubes you have to half the impedance selection. This "power tubes are power limiting" is horribly false its not funny.

Don't have a master. And turning any other volumes down effects the preamp input
Going direct with impulses actually sounded pretty fair, but the speaker volume is still there of course.

At this point I'm not sure if it'd really be worth spending more money on a loadbox

Without spending any money, the only real option is to plug the amp into a cab, use the send as your output to the interface. Of course sound will still slightly come out of the cabinet but its the same sound/volume when you have the post gain all the way down, nothing loud by all means. Make note though that you will not have a way of controlling the volume of the preamp to the interface, but it will be low enough to not clip.

If your not happy with that the only real options anymore in the loadbox department are my loadbox (the cheapest) and the Weber Mass 150 w/ line out mod (a bit more expensive). If you really had the money, may look into the Rivera Rockcrusher. I would like to side by side that to the Weber Mass to see which reactive load works better. My guess would be the Weber would outperform, but again, just a guess.

Couldn't recommend the Tonehound + Redeye setup as the tonehound is a 100W load, requires a mic pre, is more expensive than the other two options and isn't the most forward solution (at least using a transformer based DI and a mic pre in the signal chain).

Well or just leave it plugged into the speaker with the master all the way down

dummy jack in the return?

Like I mentioned earlier in this post, its the cheapest and quickest thing to do, while its not the best it will work. Since you have to use the send, you won't need a dummy jack in the return.

 

[eʍʍy]

Without spending any money, the only real option is to plug the amp into a cab, use the send as your output to the interface. Of course sound will still slightly come out of the cabinet but its the same sound/volume when you have the post gain all the way down, nothing loud by all means. Make note though that you will not have a way of controlling the volume of the preamp to the interface, but it will be low enough to not clip.

When I did that earlier, it seemed to be just as loud as normal and my preamp signal was incredibly low.

thanks for all the info.
probably going to just end up selling the thing.

 

[TheWinterSnow]

dummy jack the return jack.

 

[hsnyder]

God that thread was full of some false information.

Gearslutz is like that... Just cause you're a gear slut doesn't mean you're an engineer. I mean being a slut doesn't qualify you to be a sex therapist...

probably going to just end up selling the thing.

Let us know what you end up doing, hope you find a way to get the results you're looking for.

 

[neptunian]

Either way, if you can't record a loud cab in a good room, you're stuck with impulses. And whether you use a tube preamp or an amp sim before the impulse, I doubt it would make much difference since the limitation nowadays is more in the cab/speaker modeling than amp modeling. Man, I really wish Kemper came out with a cheaper "Kemper Player Amp" that just plays ready-made profiles.

 

[hsnyder]

the limitation nowadays is more in the cab/speaker modeling than amp modeling.

VERY true. Actually, more like the whole package deal - power tubes interacting with a speaker over a transformer and being picked up by a mic.

And whether you use a tube preamp or an amp sim before the impulse, I doubt it would make much difference

That I'm less quick to agree with. modelling can get very close, but I'm not aware of any PLUGIN models that I think capture the harmonic overtones of overdriven triodes. I think the kemper (from what i've heard) and the axe fx do a great job, but there is a particular... "moving" harmonic sturcture to tube distortion that I haven't heard replicated in modellers beyond those two. To be honest, some real tube amps don't even have it (cough low plate voltage cough).

I agree they can get close though. And I also agree that without a satisfactory speaker simulation option, the differences are irrelevant.