What does Blackguard do when not touring? (aka the thread that won't die)

[Diabolik]

So I cant talk about bands like Slough Feg, Atlantean Kodex or Agalloch in this discussion because it proves my point correctly. Sure a band's CD doesn't sell huge after the first few weeks. This goes with any type of music. But like I said, there are bands who sell consistantly through out the year.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Not enough that they can live off the music. As I said, Haughm has said many times that Agalloch is not a career band and they all have day jobs. Pig Destroyer is another example. They don't tour and they have day jobs. Yeah they sell some, and I think I read an article where they said Px takes in like 20,000 dollars a year, but obviously that's like 5 grand per member per year and not even close to enough to live off of.

The point is not about moving 2,000 units a year. We're talking about moving 20,000 a year. That's how much you need to move in order to be able to live off of the music. Blind Guardian, Edguy, Etc may only move like 5-10,000 units in the US per year, but they move like 50-100,000 worldwide.

 

[Diabolik]

Not enough that they can live off the music. As I said, Haughm has said many times that Agalloch is not a career band and they all have day jobs. Pig Destroyer is another example. They don't tour and they have day jobs. Yeah they sell some, and I think I read an article where they said Px takes in like 20,000 dollars a year, but obviously that's like 5 grand per member per year and not even close to enough to live off of.

The point is not about moving 2,000 units a year. We're talking about moving 20,000 a year. That's how much you need to move in order to be able to live off of the music. Blind Guardian, Edguy, Etc may only move like 5-10,000 units in the US per year, but they move like 50-100,000 worldwide.

This whole arguement is irrelevant. There are few underground metal bands that can live off thier music. It is just funny that there are comments that this band sold 3,000 of thier new disc and they are not headlining a tuor over a band who sold less. Those album sales for a band like 3 Inches of Blood are probably from doing larger tours as an opening act for major label metal acts. Most of those types of fans who go to those shows have no clue about lots of the smaller tours. I am always amazed when talking to people at shows and they dont know about shows that are a pretty common thing. Like years back when I was at Sonata at the House of Blues. I was talking to this guy in line and I mentioned that Stato was coming here soon and it was a show that was booked and advertised.....he had no clue. So a band like Eluvieite may draw more live since the folk metal sound has grown and have more appeal at the moment than 3 Inches of Blood. To most 3 Inches of Blood dont have much credability with the lame metalcore screamer guy in the band. With this tour it will be Eluviete who will bring people in. I am sure they have sold less disc but thier live performance is what is the draw for them, not how many CD sales they had the first week the disc came out.

 

[Pellaz]

--Just...wow.

I just saw Blackguard for the fourth time last night, opening for Epica.
.....Also, they're obviously aware of their reputation as the Ever-Touring Band. When that they were playing their last song, some people went "NOOOOOOO" - and Paul's response was, "Oh, come on! Don't pretend we haven't been here eight million times already!"

That's pretty damned funny.

Yeah but highbrow in metal is stupid if you ask me man. It's METAL! I get AK is Lovecraftian lore, but it doesn't suit what they're doing. Like Bal Sagoth imo gets away with that kind of over-indulgence if you ask me because A) they re-wrote the book on it, and B) their music suits it.

And C) by the time any reviewer who wanted to call them on it finished typing in Bal Sagoth's album and song titles, they'd be dead of starvation.

 

[Prog_Please]

People sure get fired up about these things. Let me see if my logic is correct.

If CD sales within the first month are what "matters" to the labels and people "in the 'know' ", then CD sales not within the first month don't matter (otherwise it would seem pointless to use the first statement in an argument). Most of the CDs I purchase aren't within the first month of being released. Thus, most of my CD purchases don't matter.

Then I wonder, if my CD sales don't matter to the label or people "in the 'know' ", then why do I bother purchasing them at all? Why not just download them without paying?

See, my problem is the SAME PEOPLE who tell me my CD purchases don't matter also get pissed if I download a song without paying. I buy CDs because I believe it DOES matter, and I'd think the last thing a label / distributor/ person "in the know" would want to do is give the slightest notion that an individual's CD purchase does not matter.

My point is that all CD sales matter. It was even mentioned earlier in the thread that Blackguard aggressively advertises their merch table during their performance, and we all know they've been selling the same album for a while now.

On another note, it seems kinda odd people use Agalloch as a band to make a point. Lots of their stuff is in limited release (I'm still trying to get my hands on The White EP >.<). Off course there is no way of knowing how much more they'd sell if all their stuff was in unlimited quantities, but I think (no, I don't have any f.a.c.t.s. to back up my opinion) they'd sell quite a bit more (by THEIR (the band's) standards, not a label's standards, which brings up a whole new discussion I haven't seen mentioned yet).

 

[Claus / Intromental]

So I cant talk about bands like Slough Feg, Atlantean Kodex or Agalloch in this discussion because it proves my point correctly.

You can talk about them as much as you want, but they don't make any sense in this discussion at all. They don't prove your point, on the contrary - I'm pretty sure you can call up Enrico who runs CruzDelSur (Slough Feg, Atlantean Kodex) and he'll tell you that the first couple of weeks are where his distributors decides how much product they'll place in stores, and the first couple of weeks are where he decides what amount of $$$ he'll throw into tour support and advertising campaings, and (perhaps even more interesting for bands of this size) how much he'll give them as advance for next album.

Sure a band's CD doesn't sell huge after the first few weeks. This goes with any type of music.

Thanks. Nice backpedalling there.

But like I said, there are bands who sell consistantly through out the year.

No, what you said was:

Lots of bands in the metal scene will sell albums over a longer period of time.

And that is just not true ...

 

[Jasonic]

I have said it a bunch of times, and truly mean it.
I think EVERYONE is making a good point.

I think the differences lay in each of the bands being mentioned have different goals.

My original stance still stands (and yes, it is MY personal belief based on observation, and not trying to make it be fact).
The whole Blackguard, Into Eternity, Mutiny Within, etc scene of bands who tour constantly want to make a living off of the music.
Their approach is to get on 6 tours a year and get in front of everyone, which will of course help CD sales and make the label happy.

So....
1) This COULD work wonders if you get in front of the right mix of people
2) You actually are a good band live and gain fans each time as opposed to annoy them
3) You have the ability to follow up with another solid album

Some of the obvious pitfalls....
1) You are probably more under the label's microscope since they plunked tour $$$$ into you
2) As said a zillion times, you have to deliver to overcome the label of being, "That band!"

Bands like Agalloch and others who DON'T tour regularly make CD sales mostly from word of mouth and reviews.
It is definitely more viral. I think this is what Diabolik also meant when saying that CD sales go far beyond just the first month.
It takes longer to get the word out, esp if a band doesn't tour.
Sure, the smaller labels still promote, but it's more through forum posts where people even find out their new album is available for order.
These labels certainly aren't guaging their long term commitment to the band based on just the first couple months of sale.

Finally, Aeonic or Claus (Can't remember which one) mentioned that sales over time for these bands don't matter since the number still is miniscule.
Well, maybe small for a larger label who in addition to financially supporting the recording and release and promotion of the album as plunked out tour support.
For a smaller label, the costs are obviously a lot smaller.

Well, not sure if I have added anything new, other than trying to pull some of the pieces together.

I am long beyond arguing this at this point, since I think we are all in agreement that there is a major difference in CD sales and touring between bands on larger labels as opposed to smaller ones.

 

[Palabra de Dios]

This shit is intense.

Blackguard will lose me as a casual fan if their follow up is tepid. They can be the band that tours all the time all they want, but I want better music, god dammit. I think Agalloch is used in this topic because they represent quality music instead of BUY OUR SHIT!

 

[Jasonic]

I'm pretty sure you can call up Enrico who runs CruzDelSur (Slough Feg, Atlantean Kodex) and he'll tell you that the first couple of weeks are where his distributors decides how much product they'll place in stores, and the first couple of weeks are where he decides what amount of $$$ he'll throw into tour support and advertising campaings, and (perhaps even more interesting for bands of this size) how much he'll give them as advance for next album.

True, though I think it depends on the band.
I mean for Cruz, I think the only bands who tour regularly are Slough Feg (who aren't on the label anymore) and Bible of the Devil.

Lots of bands on that label who are more of projects (IE - Pharoah).

So, once again, I think it depends on the band's goals,which I know has been said a zillion times.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

If CD sales within the first month are what "matters" to the labels and people "in the 'know' ", then CD sales not within the first month don't matter (otherwise it would seem pointless to use the first statement in an argument). Most of the CDs I purchase aren't within the first month of being released. Thus, most of my CD purchases don't matter.

Any CD sold matters at the bottomline - that's logic. However, if you want to make sure that your favorite band gets good promotion, good distribution, good tour support, good advance for next album etc, then you buy it within the first weeks of release.
It's the way the business has been put together, and we can argue from now till the cows come home if it makes sense or not. The matter of it all is that it's an untwistable fact.

Then I wonder, if my CD sales don't matter to the label or people "in the 'know' ", then why do I bother purchasing them at all? Why not just download them without paying?

I'll take any sale. You can purchase them at any time, and we'll gladly cash it in when the royalty statements come in
But, to think that your purchase 6 months after release will help the band "here and now" is just not true. The distributors will base their entire "stock buying" based on first week sales, the record label will base their promotion campaign on that, etc etc etc ...

See, my problem is the SAME PEOPLE who tell me my CD purchases don't matter also get pissed if I download a song without paying.

Of course we get pissed off if you download without paying. It's stealing.

I buy CDs because I believe it DOES matter, and I'd think the last thing a label / distributor/ person "in the know" would want to do is give the slightest notion that an individual's CD purchase does not matter.

Your CD purchase matters to the point where it's a dollar (or however much the royalty rate is) on the bank account of the band, and we are honestly grateful for that. Don't misunderstand me here, we appreciate each and every CD sold, and each and every customer has our heartfelt thank-you's.
This discussion is not about the "loyalty of the fan" or the "band is ungrateful, blah blah blah".
This discussion is about the labels basing their opinion on a heck of a lot of things on the sales within the first couple of weeks - and even furthermore, this discussion is to prove to Diabolik that it is the same in the metal genre as in any other genre. I know that we as metal fans like to think we're unique, and yeah I guess we are - but we are still not a "factor" in pushing releases outside of their normal/typical lifespan.

 

[General Zod]

But, to think that your purchase 6 months after release will help the band "here and now" is just not true. The distributors will base their entire "stock buying" based on first week sales, the record label will base their promotion campaign on that, etc etc etc...

This just put the kibosh on my plan for CD purchasing next year. I had planned on putting more energy into tracking my listening, and then at the end of 2011, purchasing the 75 CDs I had listened to most. However, if it has the kind of impact you described, then I'll take a pass on that.

 

[Claus / Intromental]

This just put the kibosh on my plan for CD purchasing next year. I had planned on putting more energy into tracking my listening, and then at the end of 2011, purchasing the 75 CDs I had listened to most. However, if it has the kind of impact you described, then I'll take a pass on that.

Like I said; the labels, the bands and even the greedy managers like me, value every single sale of a CD equally much. A sold CD is a CD sold, right?

Does it make any difference in the money flow put into the band WHEN that CD is purchased? Yes it does.

Is the metal scene just like any other music scene in this sense? Yes it is.

 

[King Lek]

Does it make any difference in the money flow put into the band WHEN that CD is purchased? Yes it does.

OK...if this is the case...the bands will need to start coordinating with me the release of their albums so that I have cash on hand at the time of release.....damn this music buying and supporting is getting complicated...I think I am going to go break out a few 8-tracks now.

 

[Jasonic]

This just put the kibosh on my plan for CD purchasing next year. I had planned on putting more energy into tracking my listening, and then at the end of 2011, purchasing the 75 CDs I had listened to most. However, if it has the kind of impact you described, then I'll take a pass on that.

Zod - I hate to put you on the spot, but you opened the door.
Are you admitting to downloading ALL music before you make a purchase?
It sounds like this would be in excess of 100 or more albums.
Furthermore, once you actually have these digital copies of 100 plus albums, you realistically go back and purchase the ones you liked the most?

 

[Diabolik]

Zod - I hate to put you on the spot, but you opened the door.
Are you admitting to downloading ALL music before you make a purchase?
It sounds like this would be in excess of 100 or more albums.
Furthermore, once you actually have these digital copies of 100 plus albums, you realistically go back and purchase the ones you liked the most?

I guess this will be book 3 in our discussion.

Book 1: Does Blackguard tour to much
Book 2: Do first week CD sales matter
Book 3: Dowload then buy?

 

[DuchessOfDork]

Also, they're obviously aware of their reputation as the Ever-Touring Band. When that they were playing their last song, some people went "NOOOOOOO" - and Paul's response was, "Oh, come on! Don't pretend we haven't been here eight million times already!"

I am now a fan. I love bands with a sense of humor and humility.

 

[cslebn]

I guess this will be book 3 in our discussion.

Book 1: Does Blackguard tour to much
Book 2: Do first week CD sales matter
Book 3: Dowload then buy?

Book 4: 12 pages of a Blackguard thread with both good, bad, and non related press

 

[Claus / Intromental]

OK...if this is the case...the bands will need to start coordinating with me the release of their albums so that I have cash on hand at the time of release.....damn this music buying and supporting is getting complicated...I think I am going to go break out a few 8-tracks now.

Well ... actually ... most labels in this business do not release many albums from mid of November to mid January (as this is where they know you'll be spending all your cash on Christmas gifts) nor in mid-summer (as they know you'll be lying on a beach in the outer banks spending your cash on margharitas) ...

 

[Diabolik]

Well ... actually ... most labels in this business do not release many albums from mid of November to mid January (as this is where they know you'll be spending all your cash on Christmas gifts) nor in mid-summer (as they know you'll be lying on a beach in the outer banks spending your cash on margharitas) ...

This is the first time we agree the whole thread. I used to hate going to Metal Haven this time of year because nothing really new was coming out. It did give me time to buy "dead" CD's I passed up during the year.

 

[AngraRULES]

...in mid-summer (as they know you'll be lying on a beach in the outer banks spending your cash on margharitas) ...

Speaking of that (and to continue the topic fluctuation in this thread that just refuses to die), what are some of the best spots in the Outer Banks? Thinking about possibly coming down at some point in the Spring and I wanted some recommendations (although a Brazilian asking a Dane about beach suggestions just doesn't seem right...)

Thanks!