What does price matter nowadays?

smy1 said:
Some mixers have actually mixed singles through the actual electronics of radio compression, but the reality is that if one mixes something well, it will translate. Unfortunately, it seems lacking to A&R.
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Everything I have ever heard about A&R guys closely relates to the fact that they are complete idiots when it comes to audio. Why does this level of stupidity seem to be so widespread!? Seriously, this seems to be the level of intelligence that A&R guys have:

A&R: I need you to make this mix sound like radio NOW!

Audio Engineer: You know, if I process it to sound like the radio right here in the studio, it's going to start to sound excessively squished and actually bad when it is processed again with the gear at the radio station. So if I leave the mix alone right now, because it will surely sound like radio when it gets played on the radio, then it will end up sounding actually better if I leave the mix alone right now.

A&R: I need you to make this mix sound like radio NOW!

Anyone with even half of a brain would hear the engineer in this situation, and realize that the engineer is a PROFESSIONAL and that he knows what he is talking about. So, why is it that the almighty A&R guy is too thick-headed to understand things? I know that A&R guys are expected to deliver a product that will bring in lots of money and be competitive, and that doing something other than what everyone else does for radio would be a big deal, because then he'd be risking that his product might not be competitive and then he'll lose his job. But does the A&R guy just downright believe that the audio engineer doesn't understand the big picture? That's what it completely seems like, because like I said, anyone with some brains should be able to trust the audio engineer and recognize that his opinion is professional, therefore, there is no need to come marching into a studio to proclaim "I need you to make this mix sound like radio NOW!"

Anyhow, a quick funny story...one of my teachers in the audio engineering program I went to for a couple years told us about a funny trick that would get pulled sometimes on A&R guys when he worked in Nashville. The A&R guy will come in to the studio and will act like he somehow knows the sound better than the engineers in the room. He'll say something completely unfounded about the mix, like "Something is missing". So...the way to appease the A&R guy in this situation is to turn on the piece of rack gear that's the biggest, shiniest, and has the most lights flashing on it and a big knob to turn. Of course this piece of gear isn't even in the signal path and probably is something that's completely unrelated to mixing, but you start playback of the mix, put your hand on the big knob and then say to the A&R guy, "Okay, tell me when to stop". As the knob slowly turns, the A&R guy will always predictably say "RIGHT THERE! STOP!" at some point, and then be genuniely convinced that the mix all of a sudden has that extra zing that they originally wanted! :lol:
 
first of all, great posts guys ;)

I'll share my view on this:
Well, I feel lucky with all the technology we have at our fingertips for less money than we think, even something like crappy behringer composers.
When I started out, like 13 years ago as sound designer for some local bands (making drumloops, sound effects, intro and outros for records and such, some other things aswell), things were so different, a lot harder to get something like a full DAW for 600 bucks (like we do now), there wasn't any software based samplers or synths, you know, everything was hardware.
We all raved about the new E-mu E4, the new synth called Virus, the syntecno teebee 303 clone...and besides the teebee, all were +3000 buck machines. Now we can do all that on the computer, even free with some nice freeware synths, having the same sound quality a full studio could have back in the day, in our bedroom, or better yet, in our laps.
Same happened with guitars and amplifiers, everything was like "the more you pay the better", and while that's true to some extent, it's not everything, shame I had to spend a lot to figure that.

So, what's my point? my point is that we can do whatever we want with the technology we have at our disposal, even the "budget" units will be useable and will put to dust in some things older gear. Right now the market is more accesible, you can have nice monitors, computers, soundcards, outboard for less than half the price they would cost some years ago, and that's good.

Do you remember when demo tapes were done with portastudios? some of them sounded great, and they weren't using top gear...after all, if the song's good, everything else can be done easily.

P.S. Sorry for my English, it sucks badly guys
 
Aaron Smith said:
Anyhow, a quick funny story...one of my teachers in the audio engineering program I went to for a couple years told us about a funny trick that would get pulled sometimes on A&R guys when he worked in Nashville. The A&R guy will come in to the studio and will act like he somehow knows the sound better than the engineers in the room. He'll say something completely unfounded about the mix, like "Something is missing". So...the way to appease the A&R guy in this situation is to turn on the piece of rack gear that's the biggest, shiniest, and has the most lights flashing on it and a big knob to turn. Of course this piece of gear isn't even in the signal path and probably is something that's completely unrelated to mixing, but you start playback of the mix, put your hand on the big knob and then say to the A&R guy, "Okay, tell me when to stop". As the knob slowly turns, the A&R guy will always predictably say "RIGHT THERE! STOP!" at some point, and then be genuniely convinced that the mix all of a sudden has that extra zing that they originally wanted! :lol:
Click to expand...

Haha! That's a good trick. We used to have spare faders on the console that were supposed to be group-channels labeled "vox", "bass", "drums" and "guitars". So when members of the band were present during mixdown and the bassplayer wanted to be louder we'd just raise the (unconnected) "bass"-group fader and he'd be happy ...
 
i have a theory.

Alot of "consumer" products get a bad rap because people that "want" to produce/engineer can afford them, unfortunately when the recordings don't work out, they don't blame themselves, they blame the gear. I think I may have mentioned this before regarding adats, ok, they were a pain when one was rewinding and the other 3 playing but.... Did some great albums on them.

And don't get me started on the A+R radio thing. Some of the conversations I've had you would not believe. Shouting is the new swearing....apparently
 
Andy Sneap said:
i have a theory.

Alot of "consumer" products get a bad rap because people that "want" to produce/engineer can afford them, unfortunately when the recordings don't work out, they don't blame themselves, they blame the gear. I think I may have mentioned this before regarding adats, ok, they were a pain when one was rewinding and the other 3 playing but.... Did some great albums on them.

And don't get me started on the A+R radio thing. Some of the conversations I've had you would not believe. Shouting is the new swearing....apparently
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That's a good point regarding the "blame the gear"-argument - but PLEASE share some of the A&R stories! :loco:
 
Andy Sneap said:
i have a theory.

Alot of "consumer" products get a bad rap because people that "want" to produce/engineer can afford them, unfortunately when the recordings don't work out, they don't blame themselves, they blame the gear.
Click to expand...
Hey shut up I do that all the time !!! Gear or the musicians...
 
I think one of the greatest things I've taken away from this forum is the idea that what I do with my hands and my heart are more important than any piece of gear I think I need. I remember when I thought I needed a Diezel Herbert, a VHT Pittbull, and a custom 7 string guitar. Then I saw what Andy and the bands he works with accomplished with Rectifiers, 5150's, and Schecter Hellraiser's and decided that maybe I should spend more time playing and less time thumbing through magazines and catalogs looking at things I couldn't afford.
 
I agree about the gear-blaming thing - I usually don't blame gear until it stops working (with exceptions, being the shitty equipment some people try to convince me to use that *would* sound better broken) and with the exception of the said no-longer-functioning gear I've learned how to be better with the stuff I have now than I would be with a tube amp, 'high quality' pre, top of the line rack gear, a Mac... seriously, if I were given better gear right now simply for the sake of having better gear I'd immediately cease to function; having learned how to dial in sounds for the sole purpose of having them inaudible as entities of their own and instead being that little 'subconscious' tweak that makes other things sit right, the biggest problems caused by things I don't have at my disposal aren't because I'm missing a Neve forty gazillion and three or an SSL thingamawhateverthefuckthatis or a mic that picks up every nuance of me scratching my ass but because I don't have a band to play with live and I don't actually play my instrument as well as I'd like to. A lot of that comes from places like this - with the exception of the Apple Sturmtruppen and the occasional overglorified-light-bulb-Nazis, comments made on mixes and rough takes are about what to do with what's already there and not hype-in-a-box adverts; if I had just pulled together lists of what other people had and assumed that was how they got what they got, I'd have tons of bright shiny objects, but without tweaking and stuff to read I'd be as clueless and inept with the blinky lights a year from now as I was before I knew which button made the noisy go in the computer. Now when I walk into Sam Ash or talk gear with someone everything seems like the film Clueless - someone with a fifty thousand dollar SUV wouldn't drive it better than a fucking golf cart if they didn't know what they were doing, but the average musician/listener would just think it was time to trade up for the next model up. I would never have guessed when I started off with a Roland Cube 30 and an SM57 that I'd actually get a sound I liked out of gear whose price tag I didn't have to write in scientific notation - yeah, some things are basically just shit, but as far as most things go, if it can put sound on the computer it can put a good sound on the computer. Having the same stuff for years (with the exception of a months-old 212 combo and an Audiophile 2496 that I haven't figured out how to use) taught me so much about playing the fuck out of heavy strings instead of cranking gain/volume, twisting the mic a dime's width at a time, proper guitar setup and amp configuration, and singing in tune (ha!) that I'm afraid to buy new stuff out of fear that it'll turn me stupider. Sure, I'm not getting customers *at all* or getting signed to record labels anytime soon as a cheapass with one mic and a homemade pre who refuses to purchase tube amps out of ethical objection five years from now, but I can listen to 90% of the stuff out there and know that I could make it sound ninety different ways with one knob, and that makes me feel less annoyed about not having a job or anything with a price tag over three digits long.

Jeff
 
elephant-audio said:
I really like the TR8's. I just quit the studio on Friday. But before I did we had a few pairs of different monitors. Mackie HR824's, KRK RP-8's, Even TR8's, Alesis M1mkII's, and a pair of NS10's recently acquired off the 'bay. The TR8's (out of the entire collection) are very nice moni's. Very loud, very detailed, and one hell of a bang for your buck. Case in point, I seriously (after working with ADAMs and Genelecs) think these monitors *should* be in the $1200/pair range, but I'm glad they aren't :p They are easily on-par with the Mackie HR824A's which are $1200/pair. Which is why I think the TR8's should be in a higher bracket than they are.

It seems much easier to get thigns to translate when mixing on the Events than the KRK's and Mackie's. That's not to say those are bad moni's, it's just I found that everything translated faily better with the TR8's, on certain things.

On-Topic:

I really like how this is going so far. Getting comments from all corners of the game is really helping to shed light on the matter.

~e.a
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as far as the events go, you know i am their biggest preacher on the tr8:heh: . well ive got to tell you, i got the studio precision 8s about three weeks ago, and wow. they are the same animal only like seriously 50 times better/nicer in the same way. took no getting used to but instantly better. i tried the whackies(didnt like them at all), the new jbl 8 inchers(lsr 6348 or something, not that bad but kinda dull for me, not very fun or something) and dynaudio bm5as(close 2nd for me but just didnt have the low end or power i was lookin for). if you like events or are lookin for new monitors i would give them a listen.
 
Any recommendations for slightly less expensive monitors, while we're at it? I know we're already pretty low by pro standards, but I'm still much too cheap and I need some new speakers anyway...

Jeff
 
great topic guys...

I work in a retail store selling studio gear to the consumer market. So i can totally relate. I get guys coming in asking for a "pro" studio setup with $1000. Sometimes even less. I have had "know-it-alls" come in and tell me that their behringer DDX3216 pre-amps sounds better than my 1272. "sure, whatever floats your boat". I hardly ever move any high end gear(API, Avalon, Millenia, Portico, Lavry), although i have some requests now and again.

The consumer market is aimed at home or project studios, so that people with a tiny budget can achieve good pre-production results. This of course flows over into the corporate market and thats where the crap hits the fan. You have little John doe in his room producing his favourite local metal band and wanting it to sound like a Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, Ross Robinson, Lord-Alge brothers record.

In my honest opinion. It doesn't make a difference if you spend $400 more on gear or not, its what you spend it on. There are too many competitive products on the market to justify the amount of money that you spend. I mean, on the SE Electronics website they claim that some producers prefer the SE2200A over a Neumann U87 on some recordings. Sure, that will work if the good combination of pre, compression and eq is added to the signal chain. Maybe the voice was intended for the specific mic. As far as I know the SE2200A has hyped highs and slightly hyped mids. Thus little eq is required to get that "produced" sound.

A lot of other guys would rather spend money on millions of plugins and never go outboard at all. This of course leads to either narrow mixes or processed sounding recordings. (mainly the reason why i asked previously if anyone uses analog summing?)

Price matters largely, people don't understand that you pay at least $500 a day minimum for a pro tools HD rig. and at least $1000 a day for an SSL. Its because that gear costs more than most of our houses/apartments. They have to pay it off somehow??? :D
 
I don't think anyone else has said this yet so I'll throw it in: I think it's worth remembering that the price thing works both ways.

If I designed the best condensor mic in the world, one that made every singer sound like the voice of God himself, and put it on the market at the price of a Neumann U87 well... no one would buy it... simply because most people ignore brands they've never heard of, even when they're dirt cheap - let alone when you have to sell a kidney to buy one. I'd be lucky to get a few buyers that had been intrigued enough to try one out and buy one. But if I put it out for half the price of an SM57, then a few people would take more notice. You get some small studios using them, someone hears it and likes it, they get one, and so on - until you someone like Andy giving me a ring asking to try one out and offering to put his cheesy mug on the adverts.

Once people are buying it, I can put the price up bit by bit until the sales level off. Then, I release a new and improved version, and charge a bit more for it. Simply from the hype of the previous model, people will pay more for it.

The reason expensive equipment is expensive is because people will still buy it at that price. It's basic supply and demand - you can't charge high prices when there's no demand for your product. The reason they will is because they know they're going to get a great piece of kit. The Harley Benton 4x12s being talked about in another thread are as cheap as they are partly because they're new and unknown - they've gone up about £50 since I first spotted them, now that people have started noticing the specs and taking the chance.

Because a lot of you guys do this stuff professionally and know lots of people in the business and use lots of forums like this etc., I think you tend to forget that some of the things you talk about like standards aren't actually that well known - for example I think everyone on here know's what Drumagog is, and I'd guess conservatively that probably half use it; and yet whenever I mention to to people I know working in studios and taking degrees in audio engineering most of the time they have no idea what I'm talking about. No doubt some of the equipment you're talking about now will be more expensive in a couple of years when they've become industry standards that everyone wants in their set up.

Steve
 
Aaron Smith said:
Anyhow, a quick funny story...one of my teachers in the audio engineering program I went to for a couple years told us about a funny trick that would get pulled sometimes on A&R guys when he worked in Nashville. The A&R guy will come in to the studio and will act like he somehow knows the sound better than the engineers in the room. He'll say something completely unfounded about the mix, like "Something is missing". So...the way to appease the A&R guy in this situation is to turn on the piece of rack gear that's the biggest, shiniest, and has the most lights flashing on it and a big knob to turn. Of course this piece of gear isn't even in the signal path and probably is something that's completely unrelated to mixing, but you start playback of the mix, put your hand on the big knob and then say to the A&R guy, "Okay, tell me when to stop". As the knob slowly turns, the A&R guy will always predictably say "RIGHT THERE! STOP!" at some point, and then be genuniely convinced that the mix all of a sudden has that extra zing that they originally wanted! :lol:
Click to expand...

Great - I'll remeber that the next time I'm working with a precocious vocalist. I have heard a story about one of the most sucessful a= r men of recent times in england who insists on being at the first few weeks of tracking except when the drums are being laid down - as according to him - they're not important to rock music! Needless to say I blame him for the current state of main stream rock in the UK. :lol:
 
Now I'll admit that when it comes to amps and guitars - I'm a whole different animal - I really think build quality is paramount. I have a mesa bass rig and some warwick basses, not chump change. Why because they are super reliable and super clean - what I get out is a hightened version of what I put in, meaning I really have to perform each and everytime otherwise it will sound like shit. Shit in shit out diamonds in heaven out. Although - and heres my big head egotistical musician taking - I can make any piece of shit sound good through listening and understanding the instrument and adapting to it., live and in the studio I want to concentrate on the part I'm playing and what is coming off my chops - not the amp or bass.

As for my TR8's - hell yeah, they are great although you need a big room to get areally focussed bottom end. I got my pair for £330 - which is awesome although I tore up my biceps carrying those heavy fuckers home!

Good luck with your studio mr elephant - I hope america is better for studio business than the uk at the moment.
 
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