What Sort of People Commit Genocide?

DoctorX3

Buddha with drugs & anger
Aug 28, 2003
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the set of a Mad Max movie
www.ytsejam.com
The good life of the Auschwitz guards
By Laura Smith-Spark
BBC News, Washington


At first glance, the photographs seem innocuous enough. Men and women in uniform lie back in deckchairs, listen to accordion music, decorate a Christmas tree.
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It seems like a carefree life - but the pictures were taken at the Auschwitz death camp at the height of the Holocaust.

The happy men and women are Nazi officials enjoying time off from the business of genocide, snapped by Karl Hoecker, an adjutant to the camp commander.

His unique album of 116 photographs was found in Frankfurt in 1946 by a US intelligence officer, who kept it to himself for six decades before showing it to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum last year.

Museum archivist Rebecca Erbelding, who has helped to put album online, believes the very ordinariness of the scenes captured is what makes them so chilling.

"It shouldn't have surprised us that this was how they lived in Auschwitz, that this was how they unwound after a 'hard day's work'," she told the BBC News website.

"But I think it's shocking because it's a reminder that they were human beings, that they weren't red-eyed monsters, that they had pets and children and lives, and yet could do this to other people."

The find has significantly increased the number of photographs available to historians of Auschwitz-Birkenau before its liberation in January 1945.

Previously, only about 320 images were known, many of them in the so-called Auschwitz Album, which shows the arrival of Hungarian Jews at the camp in May 1944.

Hoecker's album includes the only known pictures of Dr Josef Mengele - notorious for the medical experiments he conducted on Auschwitz inmates - taken within the camp's confines.

Josef Mengele is second from left of the five people mainly in this photo
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Not a single prisoner appears in any of the images.

Gas chambers

Ms Erbelding says the album seems to have been created very much as a personal keepsake.

Many of the pictures were taken at Solahuette, a little-known SS resort near Auschwitz where the camp's guards were periodically sent as a reward for hard work.

Hoecker himself is a regular fixture, decorating a Christmas tree in one photograph, going hunting or playing with his dog in others.

A series of images dated 22 July 1944 shows him eating blueberries with a group of female SS auxiliaries, one of whom pretends to cry as she holds her now-empty bowl upside-down.
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On that same day, the museum's researchers found, 150 prisoners, Jews and non-Jews, arrived on a transport to Auschwitz. The SS selected 21 men and 12 women for work and killed the rest in the gas chambers.

Another image shows Hoecker enjoying a sing-along with senior SS officers, identified by the museum as Dr Mengele, former Auschwitz Kommandant Rudolf Hoess, gas chamber supervisor Otto Moll and Birkenau Kommandant Josef Kramer.

'Innocent' claim

Despite Hoecker's apparent closeness to those in charge, he is a relatively little-known figure in Nazi history.

After World War II, he went into banking and was only tracked down by Nazi hunters in 1961.

He faced charges at the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial in 1963 but prosecutors were unable to find any witnesses or evidence directly linking him to the killings at Auschwitz.

Hoecker protested he was innocent, yet the photographs in his album show him socialising with those most closely involved. "It strains credulity to suggest he would have been unaware of their crimes," is the museum's verdict.

He was sentenced to seven years in prison and released on parole in 1970. He returned to his banking job and eventually died in Germany in 2000, aged 88.

Modern parallels

Dr Stephen Feinstein, director of the Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies at the University of Minnesota, said the photographs reveal an almost schizophrenic disconnect between the people and their actions.

"These people were trying to have a normal life while they were killing people," he said.

"What is says to me is that anybody is capable of committing genocide under the right circumstances, and what we have to figure out is what makes that possible."

He draws a parallel between what happened in Nazi Germany and more recent events in Rwanda and Bosnia, where people who had lived side-by-side for years ended up killing each other.

He also sees an echo in the scandal at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, where American men and women "raised as good citizens" were guilty of abusing Iraqi prisoners in their charge.

Visitors' book

But Dr Robert Rozett, director of the libraries at the Yad Vashem Holocaust Centre in Israel, said this is not a surprise to those familiar with the history of the Holocaust.

Yad Vashem's own archives include a visitor's book kept by camp commandant Rudolf Hoess, where guests thank him for their lovely stay, he pointed out.

"What the pictures are is a very graphic visual illustration of what was going on there, and so are very important in helping us understand who the murderers were, that they often saw themselves as ordinary human beings.

"And in some ways they were - but they had an ideology of hate and engaged in mass murder.

"But they divorced themselves from that, would go home, listen to classical music, host their friends, have a good time."

'Offensive'

For the time being, the US Holocaust Memorial Museum intends only to show the photographs online.

This means more people can access them, allows all the images from the double-sided pages to be displayed and has made the process much quicker than if they had been incorporated into the museum's physical collection, said Ms Erbelding.

"We were concerned about how people would take them because, if you take it out of context, it very much seems like a vacation album, of fun times he had," she said.

"We were very careful to include that context and it seems that most people are understanding the point we were trying to make - that the perpetrators were human beings and that it wasn't a nameless, faceless people who did this."

A lot of Holocaust survivors find the album itself and the fact it was ever created very offensive, she said, but even so "understand how important it is in terms of a reminder".

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It starts with denying the humanity of those who are different...

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Unchecked, it proceeds to denying those deemed non-persons their homes, families and basic freedoms

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And lastly, it ends here.

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I'm just amazed at how well these men were able to compartmentalize their domestic lives from what amounted to ritual slaughter of millions.

Carl Sagan has an excellent comment on this. I've posted his video on this messageboard before, but I think it bears repeating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
 
"It starts with denying the humanity of those who are different..."


traditionally, perhaps. Personally, I think it unnecessary.
 
What sort of people commit genocide? People who apparantly hate their own race, and feel they don't deserve to exist as a people. Now who could I be referring to?

It would be the first time in history that a major indigenous population has voluntarily become a minority, rather than through war, famine or disease. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/racism/Story/0,2763,363777,00.html
 
thriving as a race on the planet, slightly less than other races in one particular city, counts as genocide?o_O

We will be thriving like Dodos by the end of the century at this rate. What evidence do you have that White populations are not disappearing at an incredible speed?

I can easily provide evidence, such as the link in my last post, that proves my point.

Look at the birth rates for different countries and show us where they even approach replacement level for Europeans - don't forget 2 children per couple is less than replacement level in a population because they don't all survive.
 
We will be thriving like Dodos by the end of the century at this rate. What evidence do you have that White populations are not disappearing at an incredible speed?

I can easily provide evidence, such as the link in my last post, that proves my point.

Look at the birth rates for different countries and show us where they even approach replacement level for Europeans - don't forget 2 children per couple is less than replacement level in a population because they don't all survive.

and your point is what?---in a century there will no longer be any attractive people and the artificial tan industry will go bust?
 
Look at the birth rates for different countries and show us where they even approach replacement level for Europeans - don't forget 2 children per couple is less than replacement level in a population because they don't all survive.

that is a complicate subject, i belive "rich" countries should support development coutries and the third world, doing so, more happy people in their respective lands, not feeling the need to move. there is a research that says that in 2050, Sweden will have 60% of foreign inhabitants.

i do not support any kind of supremacy, but i belive a total world miscegenation would be so boring, In human aspects and and culture, for instance

and i know my engrish sucks
 
Hehe. I've dated a few girls who weren't white, and I thought they were perfectly gorgeous, but I'm past all that. It's the 21st century, not the 19th. I have an open mind about love and sex.

There are over six billion people on this planet, and most of them probably feel terribly alone and unloved. Better to do something about that problem than exacerbate it.

As for the low birthrates of many European nations, these are caused by social issues, rather than psychological problems of "self-loathing." European nations tend to have socialist governments which place an emphasis on educating their populace. Educational institutions put an emphasis on building careers, and educated populations are also less likely to buy into religious arguments that large families are a "duty to God." Europeans do not suffer from low birth rates because their countries take on immigrants from the 3rd world, but rather European nations are actively trying to lure immigrants in order to compensate for their low birth rates.

White people still reproduce at a ridiculous rate in the United States, but only in the lower classes. The culture of this nation approaches something of a theocracy, and classical education is a privilege reserved for the wealthy.
 
Hehe. I've dated a few girls who weren't white, and I thought they were perfectly gorgeous, but I'm past all that. It's the 21st century, not the 19th. I have an open mind about love and sex.

same here. I still find it harder to find a hot black chick than a hot white chick though... nothing wrong with subjective opinions of beauty.
 
and your point is what?---in a century there will no longer be any attractive people and the artificial tan industry will go bust?

You think the Holocaust is a joke, don't you? You think that "there will no longer be any attractive people and the artificial tan industry will go bust" is the only consequence of the total extermination of a unique ethnic group?

What a psycho.
 
You think the Holocaust is a joke, don't you? You think that "there will no longer be any attractive people and the artificial tan industry will go bust" is the only consequence of the total extermination of a unique ethnic group

a joke?---no more a joke than all the equal-opportunity mass killings.

What a psycho.

name-calling is the pathetic last resort of a man without an argument.
 
White people still reproduce at a ridiculous rate in the United States, but only in the lower classes.

The culture of this nation approaches something of a theocracy, and classical education is a privilege reserved for the wealthy.

1) Upon what statistical information do you base the first assertion(re. birthrates)? While lower classes may indeed be more fecund than say, the very rich, the overall birthrate of Whites in America remains low and is below even the standard replacement rate.

2)It is with no small degree of irony that I note that the concern noted above, over a proper education being reserved only for those born of wealth and priviledge was a great concern to Adolf Hitler, as his own modest roots caused him a variety of issues along those same lines.(He spoke in detail of this "Mein Kampf") Go figure...
 
It is with no small degree of irony that I note that the concern noted above, over a proper education being reserved only for those born of wealth and priviledge was a great concern to Adolf Hitler, as his own modest roots caused him a variety of issues along those same lines.(He spoke in detail of this "Mein Kampf") Go figure...

Adolf Hitler, for good or ill, was both anti-capitalist and anti-liberal, which makes him something a lot of modern people would love to be, hence the rise of the liberalized third front (generally, Greens, a movement also descended from Hitler's third reich).

Some reading for my peeps in the hood here:

The 25 points of the NSDAP Program were composed by Adolf Hitler and Anton Drexler. They were publically presented on 24 February 1920 "to a crowd of almost two thousand and every single point was accepted amid jubilant approval." (Mein Kampf, Volume II, Chapter I) Hitler explained their purpose in the fifth chapter of the second volume of Mein Kampf:
[T]he program of the new movement was summed up in a few guiding principles, twenty-five in all. They were devised to give, primarily to the man of the people, a rough picture of the movement's aims. They are in a sense a political creed, which on the one hand recruits for the movement and on the other is suited to unite and weld together by a commonly recognized obligation those who have been recruited.

Hitler was intent on having a community of mutual interest that desired mutual success instead of one that was divided over the control of money or differing values.
THE COMMON INTEREST BEFORE SELF-INTEREST -
THAT IS THE SPIRIT OF THE PROGRAM. BREAKING OF THE THRALDOM OF INTEREST - THAT IS THE KERNEL OF NATIONAL SOCIALISM.

In these straightforward statements of intent, Hitler translated his ideology into a plan of action which would prove its popularity with the German people throughout the coming years. For many, the abruptness of its departure from the tradition of politics as practiced in the western world was as much of a shock as its liberal nature and foresight of the emerging problems of western democracy.


The Programme of the German Workers' Party is designed to be of limited duration. The leaders have no intention, once the aims announced in it have been achieved, of establishing fresh ones, merely in order to increase, artificially, the discontent of the masses and so ensure the continued existence of the Party.

1. We demand the union of all Germany in a Greater Germany on the basis of the right of national self-determination.

2. We demand equality of rights for the German people in its dealings with other nations, and the revocation of the peace treaties of Versailles and Saint-Germain.

3. We demand land and territory (colonies) to feed our people and to settle our surplus population.

4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever be their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation.

5. Non-citizens may live in Germany only as guests and must be subject to laws for aliens.

6. The right to vote on the State's government and legislation shall be enjoyed by the citizens of the State alone. We demand therefore that all official appointments, of whatever kind, whether in the Reich, in the states or in the smaller localities, shall be held by none but citizens.

We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of filling posts merely in accordance with party considerations, and without reference to character or abilities.

7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich.

8. All non-German immigration must be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after 2 August 1914 shall be required to leave the Reich forthwith.

9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties.

10. It must be the first duty of every citizen to perform physical or mental work. The activities of the individual must not clash with the general interest, but must proceed within the framework of the community and be for the general good.

We demand therefore:

11. The abolition of incomes unearned by work.

The breaking of the slavery of interest

12. In view of the enormous sacrifices of life and property demanded of a nation by any war, personal enrichment from war must be regarded as a crime against the nation. We demand therefore the ruthless confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.

15. We demand the extensive development of insurance for old age.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.

17. We demand a land reform suitable to our national requirements, the passing of a law for the expropriation of land for communal purposes without compensation; the abolition of ground rent, and the prohibition of all speculation in land. *

18. We demand the ruthless prosecution of those whose activities are injurious to the common interest. Common criminals, usurers, profiteers, etc., must be punished with death, whatever their creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman Law, which serves a materialistic world order, be replaced by a German common law.

20. The State must consider a thorough reconstruction of our national system of education (with the aim of opening up to every able and hard-working German the possibility of higher education and of thus obtaining advancement). The curricula of all educational establishments must be brought into line with the requirements of practical life. The aim of the school must be to give the pupil, beginning with the first sign of intelligence, a grasp of the nation of the State (through the study of civic affairs). We demand the education of gifted children of poor parents, whatever their class or occupation, at the expense of the State.

21. The State must ensure that the nation's health standards are raised by protecting mothers and infants, by prohibiting child labor, by promoting physical strength through legislation providing for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and by the extensive support of clubs engaged in the physical training of youth.

22. We demand the abolition of the mercenary army and the foundation of a people's army.

23. We demand legal warfare on deliberate political mendacity and its dissemination in the press. To facilitate the creation of a German national press we demand:
(a) that all editors of, and contributors to newspapers appearing in the German language must be members of the nation;
(b) that no non-German newspapers may appear without the express permission of the State. They must not be printed in the German language;
(c) that non-Germans shall be prohibited by law from participating financially in or influencing German newspapers, and that the penalty for contravening such a law shall be the suppression of any such newspaper, and the immediate deportation of the non-Germans involved.

The publishing of papers which are not conducive to the national welfare must be forbidden. We demand the legal prosecution of all those tendencies in art and literature which corrupt our national life, and the suppression of cultural events which violate this demand.

24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations in the State, provided they do not threaten its existence not offend the moral feelings of the German race.

The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not commit itself to any particular denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health only from within on the basis of the principle: The common interest before self-interest.

25. To put the whole of this programme into effect, we demand the creation of a strong central state power for the Reich; the unconditional authority of the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and its organizations; and the formation of Corporations based on estate and occupation for the purpose of carrying out the general legislation passed by the Reich in the various German states.

The leaders of the Party promise to work ruthlessly -- if need be to sacrifice their very lives -- to translate this programme into action.



* On April 13, 1928, Adolf Hitler clarified section seventeen in the programme in order to stop political mischaracterizations: "Because of the mendacious interpretations on the part of our opponents of Point 17 of the programme of the NSDAP, the following explanation is necessary.: Since the NSDAP is fundamentally based on the principle of private property, it is obvious that the expression "confiscation without compensation" refers merely to the creation of possible legal means of confiscating when necessary, land illegally acquired, or not administered in accordance with the national welfare. It is therefore directed in the first instance against the Jewish companies which speculate in land.

http://www.hitler.org/writings/programme/
 
same here. I still find it harder to find a hot black chick than a hot white chick though... nothing wrong with subjective opinions of beauty.

If you mean black women in the United States, then yes, I'd have to agree. Black culture is often economically stunted and trapped in an identity crisis. The old southern migrants often see their citizenship in the US as accidental, and feel disenfranchised.

But I've met a good number of Haitian, Jamaican, and African immigrant women who I found quite gorgeous. :cool:
 
1) Upon what statistical information do you base the first assertion(re. birthrates)? While lower classes may indeed be more fecund than say, the very rich, the overall birthrate of Whites in America remains low and is below even the standard replacement rate.

2)It is with no small degree of irony that I note that the concern noted above, over a proper education being reserved only for those born of wealth and priviledge was a great concern to Adolf Hitler, as his own modest roots caused him a variety of issues along those same lines.(He spoke in detail of this "Mein Kampf") Go figure...

According to the sources that I can find, Americans are reproducing at a rate of 2.08 overall. You're correct, that's below the replacement level, but still much higher than most European nations.

And most of the births are coming from immigrants, though this includes Eastern European immigrants, who increased quite a in the late 1980s and early 1990s after the iron curtain fell.

http://usinfo.state.gov/journals/itsv/1204/ijse/singer.htm

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/93feb/mann1.htm

http://neuropolitics.org/defaultfeb06.asp


The final issue is that while white people still breed in this country, a significant number of the offspring are multiracial. I imagine some people are against the mixing of races, or at least with whites having children of mixed race. They feel threatened that the white population in their eyes is slowly diminishing. This is the same mindset that has many black political leaders now clamoring for use of the "one drop rule" in the annual census numbers. If everyone with even a trace of black ancestry is counted as "black," it makes their population numbers seem to rise that much faster, and their political clout that much more intimidating.

I personally have little time or patience for such arguments.
 
The final issue is that while white people still breed in this country, a significant number of the offspring are multiracial. I imagine some people are against the mixing of races, or at least with whites having children of mixed race. They feel threatened that the white population in their eyes is slowly diminishing. This is the same mindset that has many black political leaders now clamoring for use of the "one drop rule" in the annual census numbers. If everyone with even a trace of black ancestry is counted as "black," it makes their population numbers seem to rise that much faster, and their political clout that much more intimidating.

I personally have little time or patience for such arguments.

You really do paint with a very broad brush Doctor. I sincerely question the assertion that a "significant" number of the offspring of white Americans are multiracial. Of course 'significance' is subjective in itself, so perhaps it means something different to each of us.

Some of us do indeed frown on miscegenation in general - but not expressly for reasons of political clout or intimidation I can assure you. Some of us simply reason that unique racial/enthic groups of all variety are worth perserving as they are. Admittedly, there is already great diversity within each racial-type and ethnic subgroup - but breeding out ethnic distinctions and peculiarities isn't something some of us choose to support.

It is instructive that you note Black political leaders and their open calls for distinctions along racial lines - even among the decidedly "diluted." Such racial consciousness among Whites in America would be dismissed as so much vile "racism" without question. Identity politics is a complex and duplicitous game, is it not?
 
Despite Hoecker's apparent closeness to those in charge, he is a relatively little-known figure in Nazi history.

After World War II, he went into banking and was only tracked down by Nazi hunters in 1961.

He faced charges at the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trial in 1963 but prosecutors were unable to find any witnesses or evidence directly linking him to the killings at Auschwitz.

Hoecker protested he was innocent, yet the photographs in his album show him socialising with those most closely involved. "It strains credulity to suggest he would have been unaware of their crimes," is the museum's verdict.

He was sentenced to seven years in prison and released on parole in 1970. He returned to his banking job and eventually died in Germany in 2000, aged 88.

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The fact he was convicted based on some photos without any direct evidence scares me. I'd better avoid having my photo taken in the future or risk being accused of perpetrating genocide.