Why is the metalness of Black Sabbath questioned but not 80s Priest or Dio?

[CiG]

iT's CoNtRiVeD.

 

[Sophii]

Christian Metal be praised. Hail to Trouble and their ilk.

Place of Skulls too. Victor Griffin's Christ worship in doom is the best imo.

 

[Krow]

Christian Metal be praised. Hail to Trouble and their ilk.

Place of Skulls too. Victor Griffin's Christ worship in doom is the best imo.

The Black is Never Far is one of my all time doom metal albums. Just fuckin glorious, and I'm far from down with JC and the bois.

 

[Sophii]

The Black is Never Far is one of my all time doom metal albums. Just fuckin glorious, and I'm far from down with JC and the bois.

JC is a cool dood. His followers are kinda brainlets tho.

But for sure man. Griffin can throw down some tasty riffs for days.

 

[Allfader]

I love Sabbath and they created the metal genre for sure, but I think their early music is kinda 'primitive'(quite bluesy and psychedelic) compared to metal music that came after them (Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Metallica etc.).

Even fucking Scorpions were heavier than Priest at the very beginning. Metallica has nothing to do with Sabbath and the like. It's a whole different generation step up.

On the other hand, Danzig did a fantastic job on his own take of Sabbath's sound. 4 first Danzig albums are monumental.

 

[Sedition and Pockets]

I dig Master of Reality because it's the most stylistically consistent of the early Sabbath records.

 

[Texas King]

Sure, Sabbath's early shit is blues tinged. Metal had to evolve from somewhere though. But just listen to the title track from the first album, there isn't a hint of blues in that song. You've got every single ingredient for heavy metal right there.

Nope. Title track Black Sabbath is just doom metal and it cannot be associated with any other style/subgenre of metal besides doom. It's not HEAVY metal but doom metal. It's quite influential on the 80's doom metal, but not on the other forms of metal from the 80's (NWOBHM, thrash, speed, power, death, black).

For example heavy metal tracks as Judas Priest's Exciter or Iron Maiden's Wrathchild stylistically sound nothing like Black Sabbath (the song) and they're not influenced by it at all.
Convince me otherwise.

 

[Sophii]

Nope. Title track Black Sabbath is just doom metal and it cannot be associated with any other style/subgenre of metal besides doom. It's not HEAVY metal but doom metal. It's quite influential on the 80's doom metal, but not on the other forms of metal from the 80's (NWOBHM, thrash, speed, power, death, black).

For example heavy metal tracks as Judas Priest's Exciter or Iron Maiden's Wrathchild stylistically sound nothing like Black Sabbath (the song) and they're not influenced by it at all.
Convince me otherwise.

Genre gymnastics is absolutely the reason why I don't give much of a fuck about this sort of thing lmao.

You're not wrong but you're not right either. Early Sabbath through and through was heavy metal, enough said.
Its the foundation for Doom metal, sure; the first like 4 Sabbath albums are the staple and blueprint for Doom metal as a whole, but that doesn't stop it from being Heavy Metal.

Just like how Possessed's Death Metal is the earliest blueprint of its named pioneering genre, but were ultimately just a thrash band at that time. Or Venom's Black Metal, even though its just a punky trashy heavy metal album.

With Sabbath, its all heavy metal, my guy. At least with their most overtly stuff like metal; foregoing stuff like Changes, Fluff, etc.

 

[Texas King]

With Sabbath, its all heavy metal, my guy. At least with their most overtly stuff like metal; foregoing stuff like Changes, Fluff, etc.

You consider early Black Sabbath HEAVY metal in the same way that Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are heavy metal?
For example compare "Killers" and "Stained Class" with "Paranoid" and you will see those two albums are stylistically vastly different than Paranoid and despite that you'd put all three albums in the same (heavy metal) box?

 

[Sophii]

You consider early Black Sabbath HEAVY metal in the same way that Judas Priest and Iron Maiden are heavy metal?
For example compare "Killers" and "Stained Class" with "Paranoid" and you will see those two albums are stylistically vastly different than Paranoid and despite that you'd put all three albums in the same (heavy metal) box?

Yes, because there are varieties in every subgenre.

Are Venom and Inquisition comparable? No, but they are both black metal

Are Autopsy and Spawn of Possession comparable? No, but they are both death metal.

Are fucking Supertramp and Abba comparable? No, but they are both fucking pop music.

Sabbath is as every much heavy metal as they are anything else, they just happen to have influenced yknow, heavy metal in its entirety as we know it.

 

[Texas King]

That may be true, but then again Black Sabbath inspired all facets of doom metal. Can you name a band which embodies this Sabbath-inspired right-hand path doom metal you speak of, bro?

Doom metal bands Trouble, Saint Vitus and even Candlemass sound right-hand path, but Pentagram sounds kinda Satanic.

 

[Texas King]

Yes, because there are varieties in every subgenre.

Are Venom and Inquisition comparable? No, but they are both black metal

Venom is not black metal by any means despite being very influential on black metal. Same goes for Celtic Frost.
Bathory is the first true black metal band.

 

[Sophii]

Venom is not black metal by any means despite being very influential on black metal. Same goes for Celtic Frost.
Bathory is the first true black metal band.

Such as Black Sabbath is a heavy metal band

 

[CiG]

For example compare "Killers" and "Stained Class" with "Paranoid" and you will see those two albums are stylistically vastly different than Paranoid and despite that you'd put all three albums in the same (heavy metal) box?

There's about a decade of genre refinement between Paranoid and Killers you fucking mongoloid.

 

[SonOfNun]

Nope. Title track Black Sabbath is just doom metal and it cannot be associated with any other style/subgenre of metal besides doom. It's not HEAVY metal but doom metal. It's quite influential on the 80's doom metal, but not on the other forms of metal from the 80's (NWOBHM, thrash, speed, power, death, black).

For example heavy metal tracks as Judas Priest's Exciter or Iron Maiden's Wrathchild stylistically sound nothing like Black Sabbath (the song) and they're not influenced by it at all.
Convince me otherwise.

One of the problems here is with the way the term "Heavy Metal" is used. Heavy Metal has come to be used as both

1. an umbrella term for every Metal subgenre but also as
2. the name for a specific subgenre (Trad/Heavy Metal)

I would argue that Doom is actually the first iteration of what we now call Heavy Metal (umbrella term). Doom predates Trad/Heavy Metal as a subgenre (stuff like Priest and Maiden). So yeah, Sabbath started playing bluesy stuff that progressively became pure Doom Metal (for which Master of Reality is the template) and this is the beginning of what we retroactively call Heavy Metal as an umbrella term. They didn't stop there though and they both influenced and were probably influenced by others as they helped craft the Heavy Metal (subgenre) sound. Listen to Symptom of the Universe. The Dio era really brought that movement to fruition.

As for Sabbath and the influence of their debut album on Judas Priest: https://www.loudersound.com/features/what-do-black-sabbath-mean-to-judas-priest

 

[Texas King]

As for Sabbath and the influence of their debut album on Judas Priest: https://www.loudersound.com/features/what-do-black-sabbath-mean-to-judas-priest

Judas Priest are the ones who discarded blues and acid rock elements from heavy metal and they did it on "Stained Class". So I think they gave a pure definition to heavy metal with that album. Heavy metal became its own thing separated from blues roots that Sabbath had.
Compare Judas Priest guitar solos and Iommi's solos in Ozzy-era Sabbath: vastly different, Iommi's solos are bluesy as hell (I'd argue they're as equally as bluesy than Page's and Clapton's solos), unlike Judas Priest solos.

 

[Sophii]

Judas Priest are the ones who discarded blues and acid rock elements from heavy metal and they did it on "Stained Class". So I think they gave a pure definition to heavy metal with that album. Heavy metal became its own thing separated from blues roots that Sabbath had.
Compare Judas Priest guitar solos and Iommi's solos in Ozzy-era Sabbath: vastly different, Iommi's solos are bluesy as hell (I'd argue they're as equally as bluesy than Page's and Clapton's solos), unlike Judas Priest solos.

What the fuck does that at all have to do with heavy metal?

 

[SonOfNun]

Judas Priest are the ones who discarded blues and acid rock elements from heavy metal and they did it on "Stained Class". So I think they gave a pure definition to heavy metal with that album. Heavy metal became its own thing separated from blues roots that Sabbath had.
Compare Judas Priest guitar solos and Iommi's solos in Ozzy-era Sabbath: vastly different, Iommi's solos are bluesy as hell (I'd argue they're as equally as bluesy than Page's and Clapton's solos), unlike Judas Priest solos.

You're still conflating Heavy Metal as an umbrella term for all subgenres of Metal with Heavy Metal as a subgenre. If you're talking about the latter maybe that has some merit. But "bluesiness" is no detractor from Doom Metal which Sabbath invented and was playing in full form in 1971. Doom Metal is the beginning of Heavy Metal (umbrella term). The subgenre came later.

 

[challenge_everything]

Judas Priest are the ones who discarded blues and acid rock elements from heavy metal and they did it on "Stained Class". So I think they gave a pure definition to heavy metal with that album. Heavy metal became its own thing separated from blues roots that Sabbath had.
Compare Judas Priest guitar solos and Iommi's solos in Ozzy-era Sabbath: vastly different, Iommi's solos are bluesy as hell (I'd argue they're as equally as bluesy than Page's and Clapton's solos), unlike Judas Priest solos.

Not incorrect... (except that I'd say Priest's turning point was earlier - Sad Wings and Sin After Sin) ... but are you saying that blues influence means it can't be metal? There is a shit ton of doom and stoner metal with massive blues elements.

 

[Texas King]

Not incorrect... (except that I'd say Priest's turning point was earlier - Sad Wings and Sin After Sin) ... but are you saying that blues influence means it can't be metal? There is a shit ton of doom and stoner metal with massive blues elements.

Nope, I didn't mean that. I mean generally the vast majority of metal that came after Sabbath, in the next decade (Priest, Maiden, Accept, Dio, Metallica, Slayer, Helloween, Savatage, Celtic Frost, Death, Bathory, etc.) had no blues/acid rock roots in metal and that's a big difference compared to 70's BS style.
So I think Priest changed metal a lot, because they discarded blues elements from metal.