Wider?

kylendm

Member
Apr 18, 2010
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NJ
So I finally kinda have a sound I like. (guitars are tiny bit too dark)

When the instruments come in it sounds big but not very wide compared to the lead guitars.

(Very short clip but you get the picture)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3602793/hev.mp3

Maybe you guys can hear what I'm talking about. I don't want to really use any stereo widening and using different guitar tones hasn't been working too well. The drums don't really feel too wide either. Suggestions?
 
well a few things contribute to widnes and almost all of them that dont involve spatial enhancement have to do with contrast. so different tones and not being too perfectly on time will help make something wider. most of the time i will have the highs and presence slightly varied on the left and right guitar like more pres on one and more treble on the other but still keeping them very close. mid side processing can help too. just experiment and dont worry about it too much.
 
I would say a combination of good work with reverbs, and knowing how to EQ is a solid ground for getting wide mixes. Am not able to listen to your mix right now, but having good seperation between the instruments always makes mixes feel more "roomy".
 
I would say a combination of good work with reverbs, and knowing how to EQ is a solid ground for getting wide mixes. Am not able to listen to your mix right now, but having good seperation between the instruments always makes mixes feel more "roomy".

This. It's all about how the individual instruments are playing together. I've found that when I tend to get really wide mixes, it's because there's good separation between the guitars and other instruments. When I get it right, it seems they widen up on their own. When I try to widen things with a plugin, it isn't quite the same.

Just keep working.
 
maybe (and I mean MAYBE) a MS processor would help, like DRMS. Its a free VST, and worth cycling through the presets to see if it might help.

watch this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qX2Xxxlvu8

Definitely NO stereo wideners! I stopped using those things years ago. They just screw things up too much and there are better ways of clearing out the middle and making a track seem wider.
 
I don't think I would recommend using stereo wideners, like, at all, until you think you have good enough ears to actually hear exactly what it does. I don't think I have. Also, plugins that work with delays on one side of the stereo image to create a "false" perception of wideness lowers the mono compability, where as getting all your instruments sit right in the mix actually give your mix more mono compability and it sounds just more "real". Just my two cents though. As I said, I don't think my ears are well devloped enough to hear exactly what happens when applying stereo widening on a whole mix, I have seen some pros absolutely refuse stereo wideners though, so I would recommend treading carefully.
 
Sounds fine, wideness should really be reserved and are only really achieved by those mixes with a million things and given their space, DT's music for example, compared to LOG, about the only thing they have in common is drums and bass, everything else is different.
 
I notice alot of people are against wideners in this thread. What about M/S Stereo bus compressors like Density MK III being used on a rhythm guitar bus?
 
Think about how a stereo speaker system reproduces a mono sound.
A sound appears to come from the phantom centre when the left and right speakers reproduce the same sound at the same level.
The brain decodes this and hears the sound coming from the centre.
If the left and right channels are very similar you will decode this as coming mainly from the centre.
Impulses or amp sims don't help this because they usually use a static snapshot of a speaker simulation.
The bigger the difference between the left and right channels, the wider the signal will appear.
For double tracked guitars in metal, centre shifting can be a problem if you vary the chain too much for left and right guitars.
The best ways around this (for me) are

1. Use 2 different heads and tweak the second one to sound as close as possible to the first one.
This usually gives a strong stereo image and prevents centre shift.

2. Put mics on 2 different cones and use one for left and 1 for right.

3. Use 2 different mic pres for left and right (eg ISA left, API right)

4. Use 2 different guitars. This can work but usually intonation is better if the same guitar is used for left, right.

5. Use a sum of 2 mics (eg 57 and 421 or M201) and use more of the 57 on the left and more of the other mic on the right.

I tend to use the same cab for left/right. I find changing cab gives a far more dramatic difference than any of the above.
If a band has 2 equally tight players this can give a good stereo spread too. Often though you will get one much better than the other.

Here is a mix from today.
https://copy.com/YpG7rwfNTDg6cvmf
ESP Custom Eclipse to mesa MK left and Marshall DSL right.
Once the left MK track was down, I tweaked the DSL to make it sound as close as possible to the MK4.
The DSL needed a tubescreamer to get the right attack.
They sound different enough to be wide but not enough to cause centre shifting IMO.
Both amps going to recto cab with 57/421.
 
I think I got it a little bit.

I boosted at about 2.3k 1db on the left and -1db on the right. The clip has emptiness in the beginning but you might get the idea. Adding or removing any more from the 2.3k range started making things a little too noticeable but I imagine it would work with cleans pretty well.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3602793/hev2.mp3
 
I like Baxter for M/S and eq. Going to check out DRMS. The fabfilter eq seems really flexible but its like $189.

Baxter is one of my favorite tools. If I'm done with the mix but still feel it isn't wide enough, switching Baxter to m/s and boosting with a high shelf on the sides and cutting with one on the middle really makes the mix sound wider. Its just a perception thing but I suppose that's what widening is usually about.
 
most people lowpass guitars, this is where wideness is diminished

I never found this to be true to be honest. I've never worried about wideness, never was this any sort of priority to me but I've noticed low mids are usually what "brings" guitars towards the center a bit, getting all of that under control and well placed in the mix will make it seem wider instantly since the instruments in the "middle" will gain more space
 
I just checked out that Pensado "class" youtube link and some of the techniques are amazing. The one where he splits stereo tracks to 2 mono and applies different reverbs in each channel is fantastic.
 
I just checked out that Pensado "class" youtube link and some of the techniques are amazing. The one where he splits stereo tracks to 2 mono and applies different reverbs in each channel is fantastic.

DEFINITELY! Pensado's definitely no metal guru, but his techniques can be really inspiring and can work in any genre if you know how to be creative with what he's teaching
 
DEFINITELY! Pensado's definitely no metal guru, but his techniques can be really inspiring and can work in any genre if you know how to be creative with what he's teaching

I had already watched some of his other videos and I feel the same way. And he also seems great on a personal level, really humble, down to earth and straight to the point.
 
I never found this to be true to be honest. I've never worried about wideness, never was this any sort of priority to me but I've noticed low mids are usually what "brings" guitars towards the center a bit, getting all of that under control and well placed in the mix will make it seem wider instantly since the instruments in the "middle" will gain more space

put on headphones, and set a lowpass, move to the lower frequencies and see how the guitars are pushed towards the middle :)