Fixing rhythm guitars buried in mono

[Benalthel]

I noticed that when I sum my mix to mono my rhythm guitars get really buried. I searched about this and the only thread that came up was that it might be phase cancelation issues and then it was just about whether you should care or not care about mono at all.

Personally I'd like to get it to sound as good in mono as possible compared to stereo, but the rhythm guitars go really low when I play it in mono. It's not phase issues, I've already checked that. Are there any other stuff that might help it? I'm dual tracking 100%L/R.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/54438846/stereo-mono.mp3
Here's a short clip. First half is in stereo and second half in mono. As you can hear the rhythm guitars go really low in second half.

 

[AndrewB]

I think there was a thread about this a while ago. If I remember correctly, the consensus was basically you can't reproduce a wide mix that sounds just as good in mono. You basically have to do your best on the stereo mix and hope for the best. I think the example that somebody in the thread (probably Ermz) used was that if you listen to a lot of Randy Staub's Nickelback mixes in mono, the guitars are almost nonexistent. But the mix in stereo sounds great.

 

[Trevoire520]

Panning things wide will make them very quiet in mono compared to things that are centered in the stereo mix. Only way you can really improve your mono compatibility is to bring your guitars in a bit, or record some more takes and pan them closer to center.

 

[Uros]

In my experience tho, one should pan things dead C, L, R as much as he/she can, exactly because of better reproduction in mono (although mono compatibility is not mandatory these days, but still).

 

[Benalthel]

So basically there's not that much to do about it without sacrificing the stereo mix, and I should just deal with it?

 

[chrisrivalry]

Yeah, and hope that no one listens to your mix on an old transistor radio from the 60's

 

[Terminus]

/\

 

[Dirty Singh]

Start the entire mix over and keep checking in mono as u progress.

 

[Uros]

better yet, pan everything dead center, and free yourself from worry

 

[Melb_shredder]

Seriously, I work on making sure I have the best stereo mix possible. I take full advantage of C, L, R and everything between to ensure the beat listening experience. I'll take a punt that 9/10 people listen on a stereo or earbuds. If it just doesn't fill out in mono, well shit son.. I'm nor catering for Internet Explorer 6 here am I??

 

[AndrewB]

Seriously, I work on making sure I have the best stereo mix possible. I take full advantage of C, L, R and everything between to ensure the beat listening experience. I'll take a punt that 9/10 people listen on a stereo or earbuds. If it just doesn't fill out in mono, well shit son.. I'm nor catering for Internet Explorer 6 here am I??

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Dirty Singh]

Seriously, I work on making sure I have the best stereo mix possible. I take full advantage of C, L, R and everything between to ensure the beat listening experience. I'll take a punt that 9/10 people listen on a stereo or earbuds. If it just doesn't fill out in mono, well shit son.. I'm nor catering for Internet Explorer 6 here am I??

Firstly, stereo means left and right. C l r is 3 channels. Secondly, the point of checking in mono is for when u are playing back on a system that isn't ideal, which is a lot of times. If some idiot wired his speakers wrong or his speaker position is causing phase problems. Checking in mono is very imp or when somebody hears ur shit on a bad system they won't hear all your guitars or whatever u stupidly panned hard left or right or whatever.


The dude needs to do what every single good mix engineer does... Check in mono as u mix!!!!

 

[Mago]

I think in that mix the problem is more that all ready in stereo the lead/melody guitars are a lot clearer and easier to hear than the ryhthm guitars.
You can make out the rhythms because of different panning, even if they arent as clear and mixed prety much in the back.
Summing to mono then makes it more difficult to make out the rhythms.

mono compatibility is important, but that's mainly for phase issues...seems to be more of a general mixing problem here imo

 

[Melb_shredder]

Firstly, stereo means left and right. C l r is 3 channels. Secondly, the point of checking in mono is for when u are playing back on a system that isn't ideal, which is a lot of times. If some idiot wired his speakers wrong or his speaker position is causing phase problems. Checking in mono is very imp or when somebody hears ur shit on a bad system they won't hear all your guitars or whatever u stupidly panned hard left or right or whatever.


The dude needs to do what every single good mix engineer does... Check in mono as u mix!!!!

*See Nickelback - All The Right Reasons... I'd be pretty pissed at Randy Staubs poor mixing ability if I wired my speakers wrong....

 

[Dirty Singh]

*See Nickelback - All The Right Reasons... I'd be pretty pissed at Randy Staubs poor mixing ability if I wired my speakers wrong....

What? Dude I've been a sound engineer for at last twelve years now. Tell me what about the song? I won't listen to it, I don't care who mixed it, I won't list to nickel back.

If the song sound bad to you check your fucking room setup. You're out of your element. Don't take your frustrations out on me if you don't know how many Channels STEREO is. Go back to mixing for right, left, and center Channels. You have a studio? You have clients?

What's your point?

 

[Melb_shredder]

No disrespect, chill out I'm saying youre the one questioning someone's mixing ability if their mix falls apart in Mono. And after another similar thread I was pointed to bands/ songs/ mixes which in mono seem to fall apart. Nickelback (having some amazing production) sound like a drum vocal mix in mono and the guitars are almost gone completely.

I'm just saying, not everyone worries about mono.. Wasn't trying to offend or take anything out on you mate

 

[arv_foh]

What? Dude I've been a sound engineer for at last twelve years now.

 

[Habsburgs]

 

[AndrewB]

What? Dude I've been a sound engineer for at last twelve years now. Tell me what about the song? I won't listen to it, I don't care who mixed it, I won't list to nickel back.

If the song sound bad to you check your fucking room setup. You're out of your element. Don't take your frustrations out on me if you don't know how many Channels STEREO is. Go back to mixing for right, left, and center Channels. You have a studio? You have clients?

What's your point?

Calm down, bro. And the fact that you won't listen to Nickelback purely for educational purposes doesn't make you seem more knowledgable, it makes you seem more arrogant and intolerable.

Anyway, if you could listen to a fucking Nickelback song for 2 fucking minutes, then you would find out that Randy Staub's mixing on it is really, really good. However, when you play his mixes on that album in mono, the guitars become a lot quieter. Point being: the fact that his mixes sound bad in mono doesn't mean much, because his mixes sound so fantastic in stereo.

 

[neptunian]

I noticed that when I sum my mix to mono my rhythm guitars get really buried.

If you do this: mono audio source -> pan -> send to bus that sums to mono

...and adjust the panning, you'll notice the mono output will vary in volume, being quietest at 100% L and R, and loudest at 0.

Wouldn't this mean that, when you sum a mix to mono, centered tracks will become disproportionately louder versus ones that were panned full L or R?