Summing to Mono = Horrible guitars

[Melodeath]

I'm having some issues. My audio professor was critiquing the mix I've done for my bands albums and noticed that the mix falls apart when you sum to mono. A lot is disappearing.

I checked it myself and he is right. The guitars level SEVERELY drops when I sum to mono.

I dual tracked the guitars. Panned 100% L and R. Different player, different guitar, same amp, same cab, same two mics, same two positions.

Why am I getting so much phase cancellation? I referenced my mix against other stuff and other stuff seems to be more mono compatible. My mix just sounds wider than everything.

Any ideas on why the guitars are canceling so much in mono? Reversing the phase of one guitar doesn't make it any better!

Thanks for the help

 

[KeithTidd]

maybe flip the polarity of one side of the guitars - that way when you sum to mono they won't cancel out as much.

 

[Trevoire520]

The guitars are disappearing because you have them panned 100% left and 100% right. When summing to mono things that are closer to the centre will become more prominent and things that are wider will become less prominent.

This is probably part of why Andy does two tracks 100% L&R and two tracks at a lower level that are 80% L&R, it helps to make the mix more solid in mono without taking away from the stereo image too much.

Another option is to do a single track dead centre and keep the level low. Though if you're doing different harmonies on each side this could make things difficult (or fun if you want to create another harmony!)

 

[Melodeath]

maybe flip the polarity of one side of the guitars - that way when you sum to mono they won't cancel out as much.

Tried this. Unfortunately it makes no difference.

The guitars are disappearing because you have them panned 100% left and 100% right. When summing to mono things that are closer to the centre will become more prominent and things that are wider will become less prominent.

This is probably part of why Andy does two tracks 100% L&R and two tracks at a lower level that are 80% L&R, it helps to make the mix more solid in mono without taking away from the stereo image too much.

Another option is to do a single track dead centre and keep the level low. Though if you're doing different harmonies on each side this could make things difficult (or fun if you want to create another harmony!)

Good point. Maybe the tracks I'm referencing against aren't panned 100%.

Having used 2 mics on 2 speakers for each guitar, I tried putting one mic at 100% and the other at 80% on eahc side, instead of 4 mics all panned 100%. It makes no noticeable difference when summing to mono, though, unfortunately.

 

[ahjteam]

check that you arent accidentally panning the guitars as stereo on the same take. put the same take to the same side.

 

[BLUElightCory]

The phasing problems are occurring because the signal on the two sides is still very similar (with the exception of the player and guitar). The two tones are JUST different enough to cause phase cancellation when summed to mono. You could try reamping one of the tracks with a different amp and mic position, otherwise I wouldn't worry too much.

Someone earlier said that they are canceling because you have them hard-panned. This makes no difference at all. If you panned the tracks towards the center, you'd get the same amount of phase cancellation in mono, it's just that the difference wouldn't be as apparent (because the panning overlap would cause more obvious cancellation in stereo).

 

[Metaltastic]

Honestly, who cares? Even if your mix is being played back by a stereo with the speakers right next to each other, it'll still sound separated enough because there are two different drivers producing the jamz - if someone is listening to your stuff through one speaker, I say fuck 'em

 

[Harry Hughes]

Honestly, who cares? Even if your mix is being played back by a stereo with the speakers right next to each other, it'll still sound separated enough because there are two different drivers producing the jamz - if someone is listening to your stuff through one speaker, I say fuck 'em

+1
If people don't care enough to listen to it through a stereo source, you shouldn't care enough to make it work in mono.

 

[joeymusicguy]

yeah screw mono

i hard pan my stuff, no one complains

 

[ahjteam]

i hard pan my stuff, no one complains

except we do sometimes, but not for the mono compatibility reasons

 

[abt]

Honestly, who cares? Even if your mix is being played back by a stereo with the speakers right next to each other, it'll still sound separated enough because there are two different drivers producing the jamz - if someone is listening to your stuff through one speaker, I say fuck 'em

+1

It's 2010 people!

 

[chdrummer]

gotta love when people hate on sturgis ;]

 

[PhilR]

+1

It's 2010 people!

So what happens to the mix when you're standing any distance away from the speakers? It diminishes to a mono point source the further away you get. Mono compatibility IS still important. It's just another part of fundamental mixing best practice along with proper balancing and filtering. I've heard mixes that sound great in stereo turn to shit when played in a nightclub because they simply didn't sum properly.

 

[abt]

So what happens to the mix when you're standing any distance away from the speakers? It diminishes to a mono point source the further away you get. Mono compatibility IS still important. It's just another part of fundamental mixing best practice along with proper balancing and filtering. I've heard mixes that sound great in stereo turn to shit when played in a nightclub because they simply didn't sum properly.

I have serious doubts that anything I'm going to mix is going to be played in a night club.

 

[The Unavoidable]

except we do sometimes, but not for the mono compatibility reasons

Real mature.



Yeah, I was about to suggest telling your prof to fuck off, seriously mono capability? By the time you finnish your education the last trace of mono audio will be gone anyway. Just listen to Randy Staub, his stuff fucks up in mono as well so I guess he needs to go back to school.

 

[ahjteam]

By the time you finnish your education the last trace of mono audio will be gone anyway.

You mean like cellphones? I don't think so.

 

[PhilR]

Incidentally, I just checked a track from AiC's "Black Gives Way To Blue" and I think it sounds fine in mono. The guitars don't "disappear" at all in my opinion. Frankly I think it's inconceivable that a mixer of Staubs stature and experience would not be checking his mixes in mono, especially as he knows full well that they will be played on the radio.

 

[Uladyne]

I have serious doubts that anything I'm going to mix is going to be played in a night club.

 

[everybody's x]

most pa systems are still run in mono. Paging systems muzak etc. it still matters and will for some time. Ever heard an old van halen album playing in a bar and Eddie is gone?
Andy says he doesnt worry about mono compatibility but his mixes hold up in mono, he's doing something to make that happen.

 

[egan.]

FWIW:

not really a main concern, i'll check it but it doesnt usually influence any of my mixes