Writing guitar riffs in odd time signatures

[AudioPhile777]

If you do it... how do you it? Any tips/tricks?

I've been tasked with writing an eight minute epic that utilizes 7/4 and 5/4 as the main time signatures... Any help or insight would be appreciated...

 

[BrettT]

It happens kinda naturally for me now, but generally the process is I'll start with a pretty straightforward riff rhythmically, then extend it by a beat or 3. Sometimes adding beats every 3rd or 4th time a riff repeats gives it a cool unexpected twist.

 

[Torniojaws]

I guess it helps to listen to music in odd signatures, since I often make riffs that are non-4/4 right away. I first jam a riff and then check what signature it uses. But I also often end up making it 4/4 instead, to make it drive better

 

[26]

I would stay away from constructing it by extending riffs or something.
Just listen long enough to the beat and try to come up with themes naturally.
Every odd timing somehow has its own "character" and after listening long enough you 'll develop a feeling for it.
Play the beat back in your mind while taking a walk.....
Hypnotize yourself! ;-)

 

[Mancha]

It happens kinda naturally for me now, but generally the process is I'll start with a pretty straightforward riff rhythmically, then extend it by a beat or 3. Sometimes adding beats every 3rd or 4th time a riff repeats gives it a cool unexpected twist.

I recently did something non-4/4 and pretty much thought in a same way.
Start simple, get a feel for the rhythm, and then try to add variations and see where it leads you.
It`s quite fun and challenging for a change.

Here`s my attempt:
http://www.box.net/shared/n30mmollkq

 

[Morgan C]

What do you mean you've been tasked with that? I think if you set out trying to create riffs in odd signatures you're going to fall flat on your face. They should come naturally imo. Otherwise you end up with a Symphony X style riff where it sounds ridiculous complicated and you have no idea what time signature it is at any one time.. but it still sounds like shit.

On the other hand, some songs I don't even realise that they're in odd signatures, like this one that alternated between 5/4 and 6/4, and I always just thjought it was 4/4. That's the kinda thing to strive for, imo.

About ;50 in this song (yeah I'm a nerd but its one of the sickest songs I've ever heard )

 

[John_C]

I find the best way to learn to work naturally in any time signature is just to play in it. It doesn't matter what your playing note-wise, just spend a few hours messing around with rhythms and really feeling the groove. Have fun feeling the groove in 5/4 though, 7/4 seems a heck of a lot more natural to me

 

[Airborne]

I find the best way to learn to work naturally in any time signature is just to play in it. It doesn't matter what your playing note-wise, just spend a few hours messing around with rhythms and really feeling the groove. Have fun feeling the groove in 5/4 though, 7/4 seems a heck of a lot more natural to me

+1
Great advice here.

 

[Airborne]

What do you mean you've been tasked with that? I think if you set out trying to create riffs in odd signatures you're going to fall flat on your face. They should come naturally imo. Otherwise you end up with a Symphony X style riff where it sounds ridiculous complicated and you have no idea what time signature it is at any one time.. but it still sounds like shit.

Dude, Michael Romeo is my favorite rhythm player. Those riffs are great.

 

[plague_rider]

Not much of a song writer, i come up with riffs every now and again that are often in 5:4, 6:8 or 7:8, its more of a natural thing like most of you guys are mentioning… i don't think about the timing, i simply work the rhythm/groove in my head and it comes out like that…

surely trying to write in those time signatures is gonna make it harder if you've got to confine yourself to set parameters??

 

[Metaltastic]

About ;50 in this song (yeah I'm a nerd but its one of the sickest songs I've ever heard )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ysDV9POBXE

Pretty cool, though I'm getting some pretty heavy Lateralus vibes

And +1 to writing riffs and just dropping a beat here and there!

 

[STINNETT]

I would stay away from constructing it by extending riffs or something.
Just listen long enough to the beat and try to come up with themes naturally.
Every odd timing somehow has its own "character" and after listening long enough you 'll develop a feeling for it.
Play the beat back in your mind while taking a walk.....
Hypnotize yourself! ;-)

+1 13/16


You'll get much further by embracing the meter as it's own entity rather than always looking at it as a standard meter with something added at the end.

Writing a riff in 7/4. Count to seven over and over, think about where the drummer might hit the snare or add accents. Give it some life in your mind first, and then imagine the riffs to go with it.

 

[drew_drummer]

A metronome, and creativity; generally the best way.

A metronome, because it will help you keep an underlying pulse in your odd-signature riff. If you do it in more of a theorhetical manner, it will most likely sound forced and tired. One good method though is to write a 4/4 riff, and slice it up into constituent parts; and then re-assemble in a DAW.

Then learn what you've assembled, and tweak if required.

 

[AudioPhile777]

I guess it helps to listen to music in odd signatures, since I often make riffs that are non-4/4 right away. I first jam a riff and then check what signature it uses. But I also often end up making it 4/4 instead, to make it drive better

Yeah, I ended up listening to Lateralus (mostly in 7/4) but that didn't help me... haha...

I just jammed with the metronome in PT and layed down some riffs... then had my drummer come in and start hand drumming in 7/4 and the riffs started flowing...

What do you mean you've been tasked with that? I think if you set out trying to create riffs in odd signatures you're going to fall flat on your face. They should come naturally imo. Otherwise you end up with a Symphony X style riff where it sounds ridiculous complicated and you have no idea what time signature it is at any one time.. but it still sounds like shit.

I actually liked Symphony X for the longest time... I don't think they're riffs are shit, there is a lot of technical skill in being able to do that stuff... I just have to work at it... and setting out to do something doesn't mean you'll fall flat on your face, if that were the case no one would ever try anything at all... That is kind of a messed up thing to tell someone, IMO.

I find the best way to learn to work naturally in any time signature is just to play in it. It doesn't matter what your playing note-wise, just spend a few hours messing around with rhythms and really feeling the groove. Have fun feeling the groove in 5/4 though, 7/4 seems a heck of a lot more natural to me

This is what I've been doing... the first 3 hours yielded nada (at least nothing worth keeping)... then all of a sudden they started flowing like a river...

5/4 is actually not bad at all to me... I'm picking up the grooves... I tend to write in 4 and 6 mostly which is why I was asked to write in 7 and 5 to break things up...

Thanks for the replies everyone... it did help.

 

[StoneLord]

5/4 = 1, 2, 3, 4, oops
7/4 = 1, 2, 3, 4, oo, ba, by

 

[Morgan C]

I actually liked Symphony X for the longest time... I don't think they're riffs are shit, there is a lot of technical skill in being able to do that stuff... I just have to work at it... and setting out to do something doesn't mean you'll fall flat on your face, if that were the case no one would ever try anything at all... That is kind of a messed up thing to tell someone, IMO.

To each his own, I guess.. I just think that trying to force the riffs you make into weird signatures is not going to have a pretty result. If it comes naturally that you create the riffs, then sure, but if you're having to take a 4/4 riff and go "hmm.. how can I get this into 5/4".. I don't think that's a good way to go about making a song.

Plus 'setting out' to make a song thats 8 minutes and has two specific time signatures seems very restrictice to me. The best song I've done was created a bar at a time, until the ideas ran out. Ended up being 7 minutes and had a fair few time signature changes, but it could have easily been a 4 minute, 4/4 song. The odd time signatures just fit better.

But again, to each his own.

Plus, the way you say you've been "tasked" with this makes it sound like a job and not something you really want to do.

 

[kramer1309]

imo, try a drum loop in that timing and try to jam to it... soon enough, the odd signature won't feel so odd anymore - thats when the riffz will cum!

 

[AudioPhile777]

To each his own, I guess.. I just think that trying to force the riffs you make into weird signatures is not going to have a pretty result. If it comes naturally that you create the riffs, then sure, but if you're having to take a 4/4 riff and go "hmm.. how can I get this into 5/4".. I don't think that's a good way to go about making a song.

It seems that if you have a grasp of time and play an instrument, that trying to do something different is the only way to do it... I'm not forcing it, but I am trying REALLY hard to do this because it would be a step away from my habitual writing tendencies...

Plus 'setting out' to make a song thats 8 minutes and has two specific time signatures seems very restrictice to me. The best song I've done was created a bar at a time, until the ideas ran out. Ended up being 7 minutes and had a fair few time signature changes, but it could have easily been a 4 minute, 4/4 song. The odd time signatures just fit better.

This is pretty much how I write all my songs, to be quite honest...

Plus, the way you say you've been "tasked" with this makes it sound like a job and not something you really want to do.

If you have a negative outlook on life and such, I could see this hitting you as a negative thing... I've been looking at it as a challenge... Just to clarify, my drummer threw this ridiculous email at me and I'm taking it seriously and actually trying to accomplish this...

Here is a snippet of the email:

• Is massively heavy

• Uses mostly Locrian scales (vocals too)

• Has nice buildup intro in 7/4 leading into car crushing heaviness in 4/4 that sneaks up on you

• Is mostly in 5/4 after intro and beginning heaviness

• Has a large bridge part mostly in 7/8

• Has another bridge part that is massively slow and heavy, like a building crusher

• Is relentless so no pauses or strumming, except maybe in intro

• Has at least 2 non-cheezy guitar solo "battles", 1 also including bass solo

• Runs at least 6 minutes without intro

• Has 2 choruses, at most

• Has rhythmic references to the number sequences 7,5,7 and 4,4,8

• Enjoys the destruction of buildings

• Doesn't like children

Should be easy

So yeah...

 

[Chris_P_Critter]

Here is a snippet of the email:



So yeah...

That email does sound like a cool challenge to be honest. I love destroying buildings too, so... awesome.

 

[GarethSE]

sounds like a challenge to write a technically proficient piece of music that is completely devoid of any form of palpable emotion.

no strumming except maybe in the intro? what if the song just calls for it?