Your idea of an ideal society?

Well, the point is that some people really think that an ideal society is attainable and they are able to sacrifice a lot to make this ideal come true. Too bad that this sacrifice involves other people, their ambitions, motivations, dreams, opinions, families, their dear lives. On the other hand, Im not against idealism, against trying to better yourself, or having dreams or whatever. I only want that to remain the inner business of each and every individual. The moment my goals and ideals start affecting the others in a way they find unacceptable, I should stop and revise what Im doing.

I think, as for a society, the less state bureaucracy the better. People need to pursue their own happiness and the only thing they need to be told is that this or that is against the law. Im against solidarity when it comes to pensions, Im against the so called "free" health care, education, or anything. You pay for this with your taxes, but the solidarity = collecting all the money in the state budget and spending them on whatever patch for whatever problem is at hand. This, of course, breeds corruption, so when you come to a doctor, you pay twice - first with your taxes and second when you bribe the doctor, because you need more than the so called "minimum decent health care". The same goes for all "free", state owned and planned institutions - catastrophic management, a huge hole where billions are lost and the service you get is worth a piece of shit (but people get used to anything, dont they?).

@Undo: Collectivisation is the start of every socialist regime - creating the equal starting line for everybody, meaning making everybody equally poor. In Russia, there were only 3% of what you call "proletariat" (poor workers depending on the industry) after the Russian revolution in 1917. People were not rich, but were used to own something, small field, house, a couple of cows, poultry, etc. So Lenin had to first create the proletariat he could reign over. When collectivisation started, people had to give everything they had owned to the so called "kolkhozes" = huge state owned agricultural cooperations. Of course, the descent immediately became the key category, together with your willingness to "share". That means that if you were from a workers family and you gave all you had "voluntarily", the only problem you had was that you became even poorer than you were. But, if you didnt want to give in, you were forced, sent to Gulag to think about that. And, if you were from a rich (especially Jewish) family, you were immediately the enemy - you were robbed of everything, parents usually killed or sent to prison. The reaction to this collectivisation was that people (even the poorer ones) started to kill their animals, destroy their wheat fields, etc. The result was the famine I talked about. The same thing happened in my country, in Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. the whole "Ost Block". Pure fucking bliss, I tell you.
 
I confess I dont know much about socialism, nor have I read Marx (except for excerpts) but what I cant agree with at all is not allowing the parents to pass on any wealth or goods or anything to their kids. Not only is that impossible to control, it's also violating my ideas of basic freedoms, I mean, not allowing parents to make gifts to their children, what kind of society would that be?

Personally, I think it'd be a good idea to unify incomes, or invent a system of income-classes, with hard workers and specialists earning the most, normal workers and less specialised people earning less and those who dont work earning the least, the rest should be up to the people themselves.
 
Socialist state controlled by robots. As long as humans are involved into the equation every system will fail, so thats the best solution I can think of.

In case you are wondering: realistically speaking Anarchism or Anarchist Comunism for me.
 
Taliesin said:
I confess I dont know much about socialism, nor have I read Marx (except for excerpts) but what I cant agree with at all is not allowing the parents to pass on any wealth or goods or anything to their kids. Not only is that impossible to control, it's also violating my ideas of basic freedoms, I mean, not allowing parents to make gifts to their children, what kind of society would that be?

A society where the parents can truly express affection for their children without recurring to materialistic thinking? If you HAVE to give gifts to your children to be a good loving parent you should not consider parenthood anytime soon regardless of your political views.
 
Blah-blah.

Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah blah-blah. Blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah.

Blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah in my ass blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

Blah.
 
Misanthrope said:
If you HAVE to give gifts to your children to be a good loving parent you should not consider parenthood anytime soon regardless of your political views.
It's not about having to prove your love, it's just that practically everything the children have is a gift, until they earn money of their own at least. So what's UC's idea? The same clothing for everyone? Unify everything and give out tickets and all?
I just dont see what that would solve, if the fault lies in unequally spread wealth, the cure lies in making the salaries equal, not the people's property.

@Marduk: Do you mean that corruption is inevitably connected to bureaucracy? Because Germany has a lot of bureaucracy, but I never thought there was much corruption here, so my perception is that corruption comes from poverty and badly managed bureaucracy. The poorer you are and the more you have to work, because your bureau is largely underpaid, the more you gain by indulging in corruption. If corruption is more likely to get you fired than it is to make your life better, well you're more likely to think twice about it.
 
Taliesin said:
@Marduk: Do you mean that corruption is inevitably connected to bureaucracy? Because Germany has a lot of bureaucracy, but I never thought there was much corruption here, so my perception is that corruption comes from poverty and badly managed bureaucracy.

Well, absolutely. And there is quite a lot of corruption in Germany as in any other country. When I finished uni I was unemployed for 6 months (because I hadnt done the military service back then, so nobody wanted to give me a job), so I had to apply at the (un)employment office. Believe me, if there is a thing that would definitely motivate anyone to find a job, then its the whole process of applying to this office. You get a pile of papers and you go from one office to another and back, and then to the next, etc., like a fucking monkey. I dont have to tell you that there is a nice long queue in front of every door. All the things you need those papers for could be done by one (two at most) person in one office, if the system worked. So you have a huge web of mostly redundant clerks, whose only job is to make your life teh living hell and you need something from them. So, you have two options - the tour de bureaucracy or corruption. And this happens in every state owned institution. And if it goes too far, its like a cold war between normal people and state bureaucrats.

We lived in a society which was run completely and solely by state clerks and secret police, so we are now very happy to have a free system with 19% equal tax and quite challenging reforms of health care and pension systems. But, you see, Germany was run by Schroeder for quite a long time, a socialist basically, so your taxes as well as social benefits are quite high. That makes your country less competitive, due to high taxes and too expensive labour spoiled by all those percs you have there. So the companies start to leave Germany and go to countries like Slovakia. So what does Germany do? Remits taxes, reduces the budgetary deficit (which is higher every year than the EU norm, something we wouldve been fucked for, but Germany isnt)? No, it calls for aligned EU tax policy, meaning that competitive countries like ours should be forced to raise their taxes and slow down their growth, otherwise blah blah blah. You get me? EU is a socialist project, crammed with clerks and bureaucrats who decide about everything - therefore it is filled with corruption (Im sure you read about those scandals). Therefore Im for minimum state, maximum trade - close to what Hayek pursued.
 
The only way one could truly solve any social problems is going straight to the root, and start working with the individual soul.

That, however, is not going to happen. Ever. So every social reform, every political system, every revolt, every try to improve society as a collective, is doomed from its very essence.

It just won't happen.
 
Misanthrope said:
Corruption is a trait common to all men regardles of sociopolitical systems: Power only puts it into the public conciousness of hypocrites who like to point fingers.

What about women? :) Yeah, I know what you mean. But I think its more a trait common to socialist systems - or systems in general. I understand corruption as a way to achieve things by means of bribery (all types), so I dont agree that, seen as that, it is a trait inherent to all human beings as individuals. Its the system you are born into that either tries to follow certain code (also moral), or it supplies morality and puts you in positions that corrupt you as an individual.
 
I don't think realistically we could have my idea of an ideal society now, because we fucked up our land a tad too much with roads and towns. I'd like to live in wigwams in clans, where the weak are left behind, and the arrogant or disloyal are sacrificed to the gods of the earth, sun, wind and water...
 
Disclaimer: Not for the weak of heart. ;) No, really, this thing contains ideas that are quite radical, and you're all likely to flame me to death for posting it, but what the hell.

Note: Obviously, everything would go down the drain very quickly with corrupt leaders, but i don't believe any system would work with corrupt leaders, so i don't see the point of mentioning corruption unless you have a way to end/reduce it.

Since we're all equals, we all have the same rights and deserve the same things. Thus, the best way to start off is to give everyone the same opportunities at birth. These opportunities should obviously be good enough to allow for any kind of life but moderate enough not to allow a person to have a good life without working. Everyone can choose what to do with the opportunities given to them, and thus a person who works hard will lead a great life and a person who chooses to be lazy will be poor and starve to death.

The obvious problem with such a system is what to do with the second generation. Eventually the people will grow up and have kids, and then a rich man's son will have better opportunities than a poor man's son, and it's not a kid's fault if his parents were lazy instead of productive. This problem is taken care of by eliminating inheritance. Thus, everyone has the same opportunities regardless of what their parents did in life (note: how to actually take this into effect (i.e. how to compensate from rich people's kids living in bigger houses than poor people's kids, for instance) is something i'm still working on, but the base idea is set). This solution also forces people into working for themselves and not for their kids, as their money goes into their own interests/needs instead of their children's. This has the side-effect of making people richer.

But knowledge is another kind of inheritance, some might say. So include an excellent educational system which teaches kids almost everything their parents could ever teach them, thus practically eliminating the advantage kids with intelligent parents would have over kids with not-so-intelligent parents.

Obviously, not everyone is a true equal. Some people are born with a genetic disease, some people are born smarter.... Well, some animals let their diseased/weak ones die and others even kill them, which ensures that the genetic "quality" of their population is kept at a high level. So why not us? With gene therapy we can already cure many genetic diseases, and i don't doubt that in the near future we'll be able to cure all or most of them (thanks to Zack for this idea). First of all, you improve the quality of life of these people and the quality of life of their relatives and friends (as they don't have to waste resources on taking care of them). Second, some of these people are completely improductive and only drain the resources of a society, and their kids often have high chances of inheriting the condition, and all of this is eliminated/reduced by curing the diseases.

The government would provide quality services for free. These services would include health (hospitals, gene therapy, other advanced technology useful in medicine (such as embryo cloning for organ growing, stem cell research, etc)), education (schools and universities; they would all be public and have high standards for teachers, and private educational institutes would be forbidden), electricity+water+gas+whatever (with good resource management to prevent blackouts, water scarcity and so on), housing, and security (an efficient police force with instant and strict punishment for corrupt policemen and an equally strict punishment for criminals; for example, i don't think a death sentence is too much for a rapist or murderer, and i know i'm not alone in thinking that this is a sentence that should be used more; furthermore, the stricter punishments are the less likely you are to commit a crime). Education would include ethics and religion, but religion would be taught as knowledge, not as an attempt to convert kids to one religion or another (i.e. no religious schools would be allowed); in fact, although all religions would be tolerated (freedom of thought+speech), education would encourage (but not force) atheism. Religious institutes such as churches and temples would be strictly prohibited (the best temple is one's own house, or so a saying goes), and anyone caught trying to control a part of the population by preaching things or taking advantage of their beliefs would be arrested (after all, whoever wants to learn religion can purchase religious books; i've seen bibles for less than a dollar's worth).

Things like abortion, euthanasia and drugs would be legalized. Abortion and euthanasia are good healthy things; those in favor of abortion will do it even if it's illegal, and those against it won't start doing it just because it's legal, and if abortion is legalized then those who do it will at least have hygiene and controlled conditions and everything (which would greatly reduce the risk of infection and/or aftereffects). And if drugs were legalized then prices would drop and drug dealers would lose their jobs (after all,they're illegal: they don't pay taxes, they charge whatever they want, etc); and the same thing that applies to abortion applies to drug consumption: those in favor will still buy them, and those against won't, and drug consumption would be reduced because all those who only use them for the fun of doing something illegal would stop using them.

All kinds of science would be encouraged (with restrictions for scientists so that nobody makes and army of clones or builds nuclear weapons), and everything in the vein of astrology and scientology would be greatly discouraged. Patents are a great evil of society, i think, since 1) they let researchers sell their science/technology at ridiculously large prices and 2) they slow down research (the human genome project, for example, took longer than it should have taken because people would just patent gene after gene instead of working together and supporting each other), so they would be prohibited (but researchers/inventors would still get paid well for their work).

As all dictatorships are bad, there would not only be a leader (with limited power and no salary), but also a council (with no salary either). Thus, power wouldn't be divided into judicial, executive and legal (or whatever they're called) sectors, but into many sectors: science/technology, infrastructure, diplomatic relations, economy/ecology (see economy section below), education, national politics, public entertainment, etc. I'm still working on whether the leader should make decisions moderated by the council or the council should make the decisions and the leader should moderate. In either case, the council would consist of a representative for every major area (science, politics, education, infrastructure, economy, etc), and the representatives would be elected by a democratic voting system which would work as follows: People would only be able to vote for the representative(s) of the area(s) they are well-versed in (for example, an economist would be able to vote for the economy councilman but not for the education councilman, and so on). How the country's leader would be appointed i still don't know, but the idea of the previous leader appointing the next one (with the restriction that the previous one and the new one can't be friends) sounds attractive. All periods would last somewhere around 15-20 years, as i believe a 4-year (i.e. USA) or 6-year (i.e. Mexico) period is too short to actually accomplish anything. When decision-making time comes, all relevant people (scientists for science/technology decisions, etc) in the country (not only the councilmen) would be called to participate on a voting session, but not all votes would count the same; everyone would explain why they think a certain decision should be taken, and the councilman would act as a moderator and weigh the reasons given and make a decision based on that; thus, "i think cloning should be forbidden because it would just produce more mouths to feed" would have a greater weight than "cloning is bad because it goes against God". Finally, all kinds of political campaigns would be forbidden.

As for economics, i think Judith's eco-economics system (with the added point that transgenics offer huge advantages) would work pretty well. I would also include a barter system rather than a currency system, but i'm no economist and any of you could easily prove the advantage(s) of currency over barter, if any, without leaving me much space to reply. But what's for sure is that economy wouldn't be anywhere close to where it is now in terms of importance, as 1) to make money your god is ridiculous, 2) i could debate extensively on the evils of capitalism, and 3) there are many things that are much more important in life than money.
 
Marek said:
I think, as for a society, the less state bureaucracy the better. People need to pursue their own happiness and the only thing they need to be told is that this or that is against the law. Im against solidarity when it comes to pensions, Im against the so called "free" health care, education, or anything. You pay for this with your taxes, but the solidarity = collecting all the money in the state budget and spending them on whatever patch for whatever problem is at hand. This, of course, breeds corruption, so when you come to a doctor, you pay twice - first with your taxes and second when you bribe the doctor, because you need more than the so called "minimum decent health care". The same goes for all "free", state owned and planned institutions - catastrophic management, a huge hole where billions are lost and the service you get is worth a piece of shit (but people get used to anything, dont they?).
See my note on corruption on my other post.

Marek said:
@Undo: Collectivisation is the start of every socialist regime - creating the equal starting line for everybody, meaning making everybody equally poor.
Ah. Then no, my answer to your question on the other thread is collectivization wouldn't be the way to equalize starting lines.

Marek said:
In Russia, there were only 3% of what you call "proletariat" (poor workers depending on the industry) after the Russian revolution in 1917. People were not rich, but were used to own something, small field, house, a couple of cows, poultry, etc. So Lenin had to first create the proletariat he could reign over. When collectivisation started, people had to give everything they had owned to the so called "kolkhozes" = huge state owned agricultural cooperations. Of course, the descent immediately became the key category, together with your willingness to "share". That means that if you were from a workers family and you gave all you had "voluntarily", the only problem you had was that you became even poorer than you were. But, if you didnt want to give in, you were forced, sent to Gulag to think about that. And, if you were from a rich (especially Jewish) family, you were immediately the enemy - you were robbed of everything, parents usually killed or sent to prison. The reaction to this collectivisation was that people (even the poorer ones) started to kill their animals, destroy their wheat fields, etc. The result was the famine I talked about. The same thing happened in my country, in Hungary, Poland, Romania, etc. the whole "Ost Block". Pure fucking bliss, I tell you.
Well, it's only natural that such a stupid and corrupt measure would breed hatred for the system and that this would in turn result in such actions as killing crops/ animals and destroying things. Again, this isn't what i had in mind when i mentioned that everyone's starting line should be the same.

Tali said:
I confess I dont know much about socialism, nor have I read Marx (except for excerpts) but what I cant agree with at all is not allowing the parents to pass on any wealth or goods or anything to their kids. Not only is that impossible to control, it's also violating my ideas of basic freedoms, I mean, not allowing parents to make gifts to their children, what kind of society would that be?
Tali said:
So what's UC's idea? The same clothing for everyone? Unify everything and give out tickets and all?
I don't know if Marx mentioned inheritance, but i thought inheritance abolition up some time ago and also read it somewhere shortly afterwards.

So you're saying that you're in favor of kids with rich parents having more than kids with poor parents? Why should they? Rich kids aren't responsible for their parents' economical status, so why should they receive part of the benefit? And it's not poor kids' fault that their parents never made enough money, so why should they pay the price for that?

I think both extremes are bad, so maybe a system where inheritance is prohibited but parents are allowed to give presents to their kids once in a while would satisfy everyone's need to be nice to their loved ones while minimizing the advantage of rich kids over poor kids.

And no, i'm not talking about giving out tickets. That whole system is fucked up. Yes, everyone would start off with exactly the same as everyone else (including identical clothes), but people would be able to earn more if they work harder (see my system on my other post).

Also, i think Misanthrope has a point:
Mis said:
A society where the parents can truly express affection for their children without recurring to materialistic thinking? If you HAVE to give gifts to your children to be a good loving parent you should not consider parenthood anytime soon regardless of your political views.

Tali said:
Personally, I think it'd be a good idea to unify incomes, or invent a system of income-classes, with hard workers and specialists earning the most, normal workers and less specialised people earning less and those who dont work earning the least, the rest should be up to the people themselves.
I partially agree with this. While i find it ridiculous that sportsmen earn millions of dollars per year and teachers barely earn enough to survive for a month and while it is true that all specialists should earn more than all less-specialized people (social workers are something i still have to think about), i don't think every job deserves the same payment. Oh, and those who don't work shouldn't earn the least, they shouldn't earn anything.

Mis said:
Anarchism or Anarchist Comunism
Yes, but how would you prevent crime/abuse in an anarchic system? I agree with you in anarchy's superiority over all political systems, but as long as humans are imperfect and some people are willing to take advantage of any opportunity to step over other people i don't see how it could work.

Kurt said:
The only way one could truly solve any social problems is going straight to the root, and start working with the individual soul.
What do you mean? Explain a little more, please..?
 
Originally posted by UndoControl
Religious institutes such as churches and temples would be strictly prohibited (the best temple is one's own house, or so a saying goes), and anyone caught trying to control a part of the population by preaching things or taking advantage of their beliefs would be arrested (after all, whoever wants to learn religion can purchase religious books; i've seen bibles for less than a dollar's worth).
I dont believe in god at all, but i think forbidding churches is against the freedom / freespeech rights. Not all priests are trying to control the population. If people want to join each other to pray together, they should be allowed to do so.


People would only be able to vote for the representative(s) of the area(s) they are well-versed in (for example, an economist would be able to vote for the economy councilman but not for the education councilman, and so on). How the country's leader would be appointed i still don't know, but the idea of the previous leader appointing the next one (with the restriction that the previous one and the new one can't be friends) sounds attractive. All periods would last somewhere around 15-20 years, as i believe a 4-year (i.e. USA) or 6-year (i.e. Mexico) period is too short to actually accomplish anything. When decision-making time comes, all relevant people (scientists for science/technology decisions, etc) in the country (not only the councilmen) would be called to participate on a voting session, but not all votes would count the same; everyone would explain why they think a certain decision should be taken, and the councilman would act as a moderator and weigh the reasons given and make a decision based on that; thus, "i think cloning should be forbidden because it would just produce more mouths to feed" would have a greater weight than "cloning is bad because it goes against God". Finally, all kinds of political campaigns would be forbidden.
And what if the leader is bad? would you let him in power for all that time??
The idea of the leader choosing the next one is pretty bad to my idea. Even if he cannot choose a friend, he could still chose someone else who has ideas almost as his own. This wouldnt allow much change in what is done for the people by the government. The way people think in a government cannot be alway always the same or thexy would do lost of things for something they believe in, but not as much for things they dont believe in.
If votes dont count the same, or if people can only vote for one subdivision of the government, isnt it basically against the chances all the equally born people? If people all have the same chances they also must have the same rights to vote... Anyone can have his word to say in any branches... People who are not specialists in something can also have great ideas for things they ae not specialised in. This is, again, against freedom and freedom of speech rights.
No political campain?? and how would people inform other people of their ideas and what they want to do when they are in office?? I know many politicians nowadays dont respect what they say, but still the papers they give informs a bit on how they see things, and what their principal ideas are. How can you vote for people without knowing their ideas and wills??


for example, i don't think a death sentence is too much for a rapist or murderer, and i know i'm not alone in thinking that this is a sentence that should be used more; furthermore, the stricter punishments are the less likely you are to commit a crime).
I do think that being in jail for one s entire life is much more awfull than dying. It is a much more severe sentence than to die. Being inbetween 4 walls in a small piece for all the day, and not being able to go anywhere else is something pretty awfull.
The death penalty still exists in USA, but have it proved itself efficient against criminality rate? not at all, and even far from that.
 
UndoControl said:
So you're saying that you're in favor of kids with rich parents having more than kids with poor parents? Why should they? Rich kids aren't responsible for their parents' economical status, so why should they receive part of the benefit? And it's not poor kids' fault that their parents never made enough money, so why should they pay the price for that?

I think both extremes are bad, so maybe a system where inheritance is prohibited but parents are allowed to give presents to their kids once in a while would satisfy everyone's need to be nice to their loved ones while minimizing the advantage of rich kids over poor kids.
What about basic freedoms in your society? Imagine rich parents who want to buy their son a car or something and it's forbidden by your new laws, what then? The Gift-Police shows up and tells them they cant do that and they'll just settle with a pair of shoes or what? That's such an absurd scene it's not even funny.
Also, how would you control that? There's no way of telling who'd use that car, so they'll just buy it in their name and your law is rendered useless, unless you want to hire an army of Gift-Agents :rolleyes:

UndoControl said:
i don't think a death sentence is too much for a rapist or murderer, and i know i'm not alone in thinking that this is a sentence that should be used more; furthermore, the stricter punishments are the less likely you are to commit a crime
That's wrong actually, beyond a certain point the time you'll spend in prison has no effect at all anymore on whether someone will commit a crime or not. What it does though is, that once the crime is done, the criminal is in a position where he has nothing to lose anymore, whatever happens, once he's caught he'll spend his entire life in jail, or is going to be executed, which is only going to make him more ruthless, determined and thus dangerous. Take a close look at the crime statistics in america and compare the states with the death penalty to those without and you'll see that the state with the death penalty have significantly better statistics. You may have to dig a little though, because that's an unpopular fact in the country of limitless possibilities.

UndoControl said:
Education would include ethics and religion, but religion would be taught as knowledge, not as an attempt to convert kids to one religion or another (i.e. no religious schools would be allowed); in fact, although all religions would be tolerated (freedom of thought+speech), education would encourage (but not force) atheism. Religious institutes such as churches and temples would be strictly prohibited (the best temple is one's own house, or so a saying goes), and anyone caught trying to control a part of the population by preaching things or taking advantage of their beliefs would be arrested (after all, whoever wants to learn religion can purchase religious books; i've seen bibles for less than a dollar's worth).
Im sure many people here still remember your psychology thread, where you kept telling us how society wanted to change people to conform with their ideas, how psychiatrists forced treatment on completely healthy citizens and all that, yet here you stand and tell us how you want to "educate" people and "encourage" (NOT FORCE!) them towards atheism, and all I can think is "What the fuck is wrong with you!?"
I mean, you already demonstrated what you thought of freedom in your new society, but what you try to sell us off as education and the freeing of the spirit from the evil of religion is nothing more than a huge pile of hypocritical bullshit.
You want to lock away anyone who preaches on anyone and forces his views on people, then please tell me, what are you doing? Who and what gives you the right to decide for anyone how they are to live their religion?

On a sidenote: You should put yourself in your citizens shoes and imagine whether they are happy or not, or you'll have a revolution on your hands really soon.
In fact, I think your "system" is gonna last 2 weeks tops, depending on the number of armed Gift-Agents you have brought with you

UndoControl said:
All kinds of science would be encouraged (with restrictions for scientists so that nobody makes and army of clones or builds nuclear weapons), and everything in the vein of astrology and scientology would be greatly discouraged. Patents are a great evil of society, i think, since 1) they let researchers sell their science/technology at ridiculously large prices and 2) they slow down research (the human genome project, for example, took longer than it should have taken because people would just patent gene after gene instead of working together and supporting each other), so they would be prohibited (but researchers/inventors would still get paid well for their work).
They should have had better secretaries then ;)
Seriously, research is expensive and even though Im not in favor of large companies locking away their knowledge from the general public, you also have to make sure that those countries get the chance to regain what they invested, otherwise you're gonna KILL research.
For example, it takes up to 800 million dollars to research a new pharmaceutical product and patents simply assure that the money comes flowing back in. I agree that it's perverted not to hand out the medication we have for people suffering from aids in africa for example, but governments could pay for that, or the companies could sell their medecine at reduced prices to those people. There are ways Im sure, the problem is the lack of attention in the media, thus the lack of interest in certain governments.
 
UndoControl said:
This solution also forces people into working for themselves and not for their kids, as their money goes into their own interests/needs instead of their children's. This has the side-effect of making people richer.

it also has the side effect of making most people miserable.

one gigantic objection to your plan for an ideal society comes - in my opinion - from the fact that you disregard basic human traits that happen to coincide with the illnesses you want to purge your community from. i've taken the above as an example.

i'm not going to dispute your right to call certain traits and inclinations wrong or detrimental: you're entitled to think that a lack of envy or greed or any other of the five remaining deadly sins would be the perfect omen for progress and civilization. moreover, you're entitled to wish for progress and civilization as the main goals of your ideal society. it's yours, after all. i'll be happy living elsewhere, and we'll get along tremendously.

what irks me is that you should not ignore that such inclinations/traits/whims are part of the vast majority of individuals, and that depriving them of the capacity to entertain the notion that they are allowed - to a degree - to act upon them is without a doubt going to make them unhappy. which is not ideal, as such.

a desire to win a race based on material possessions, the aim to give one's kids a headstart in this same race, a mindless struggle just for the sake of competition, the near-bloodlust when testing one's strengths against the others' for a prize, these are all features that contribute in defining humanity. rules and limitations are certainly helpful in avoiding a ruthless destruction of humanity itself when such feelings are left unbound, but no suppression or oblivion can ever lead to a greater level of widespread happiness.
 
Jud said:
I dont believe in god at all, but i think forbidding churches is against the freedom / freespeech rights. Not all priests are trying to control the population. If people want to join each other to pray together, they should be allowed to do so.
No, forbidding people to say "i believe in this or that" would be against the freedom of speech right. It's ok if people want to join together to pray, but they can do it at one's house, and they definitely don't need "leaders" telling them what to do. I don't believe in a god either, but i know that if i did i wouldn't want somebody to come along and say "hey, i'll preach for you because i have a better understanding of the [insert name of corresponding holy book here] and thus am closer to God than you are". Besides, priests (to use christianism as an example) don't even say what the bible says anyway. They make up half of what they say and take advantage of the people's willingness to be told things to control them.

Jud said:
And what if the leader is bad? would you let him in power for all that time??
Then it's the same as if he lasts five years and then another bad leader rises to power. By instituting long periods, at least you're giving good leaders a chance to actually do something. I'll use an example from mexican history to illustrate this: Almost every single presiden't we've ever had has been terrible (some more than others), and those few who haven't been so bad haven't had the chance to actually do anything to make the country better because six years is too little to take a devastated country and make it even moderately prosperous. But Porfirio Díaz (a "dictator" who was in power for his six years and then for another 24 during 18something-1910) was in power for long enough to turn a poor country in a more-or-less prosperous nation with a solid railroad system and a steadily-rising economy. Had he lasted any longer, he surely would have fucked up pretty bad. But if he'd only been in power for his first six years he would just be one more in a long line of inept leaders who never did anything for the country.

Jud said:
The idea of the leader choosing the next one is pretty bad to my idea. Even if he cannot choose a friend, he could still chose someone else who has ideas almost as his own. This wouldnt allow much change in what is done for the people by the government. The way people think in a government cannot be alway always the same or thexy would do lost of things for something they believe in, but not as much for things they dont believe in.
Ok, you have a point there. But the thing is that most of a country's population isn't smart/prepared/conscious enough to pick the right leader (just look at the USA). So if a leader is not to be appointed by the previous one you need a small elite to pick one. Maybe my council could pick it, since it'd be made up of the country's leaders in all areas. In this scenario, political campaigns would be allowed but strictly limited to public speeches. No bribery, no big signs everywhere with the candidate's face, no political parties, no nothing.

Jud said:
If votes dont count the same, or if people can only vote for one subdivision of the government, isnt it basically against the chances all the equally born people? If people all have the same chances they also must have the same rights to vote... Anyone can have his word to say in any branches... People who are not specialists in something can also have great ideas for things they ae not specialised in. This is, again, against freedom and freedom of speech rights.
I don't know about the situation in Germany or in Belgium, but in Mexico everybody has a right to vote and all the votes count the same. The capital city's governor (who is running for president and will most likely be chosen in the upcoming elections in july/june/whatever) is a very inept person who calls himself left-wing (and is a populist, not a socialist, and these two aren't the same) and does stuff with money that's not assigned to him (i.e. he steals money destined to other projects so he can make his own projects). And he has a tendency to ask the city's population if they want something to be done or not. First, this allows for bribery (where he gives 300 pesos / 30 dollars to a very poor man so that his family can eat for free for two days and in exchange he asks for that man's vote), and this wouldn't exist if only specialists (who have gone to school and have been taught ethics and ideally (though i know this is not always the case) have some sense of morality) were allowed to vote. Second, everyone with absolutely no sense of reality or vision of the most-likely future can vote, so the city (and soon the country) is basically run by extremely-ignorant people who more than half of the time can't read or write and who definitely don't have the slightest idea of the possible consequences of what they vote for. Thus, the country is going / will go down the drain at a faster rate than it's been going in the last couple of decades. So yes, the only way to prevent this is to allow only conscious people to vote, i.e. a farmer who lives in rural areas doesn't know shit about engineering or population dynamics and thus shouldn't have a saying in whether a new highway is built in the middle of a city.

Jud said:
No political campain?? and how would people inform other people of their ideas and what they want to do when they are in office?? I know many politicians nowadays dont respect what they say, but still the papers they give informs a bit on how they see things, and what their principal ideas are. How can you vote for people without knowing their ideas and wills??
I wanted to prevent the extreme abuse you can see in countries like Mexico, but you're right. Politicians should be able to have very-strictly-moderated campaigns.

Jud said:
I do think that being in jail for one s entire life is much more awfull than dying. It is a much more severe sentence than to die. Being inbetween 4 walls in a small piece for all the day, and not being able to go anywhere else is something pretty awfull.
The death penalty still exists in USA, but have it proved itself efficient against criminality rate? not at all, and even far from that.
Tali said:
That's wrong actually, beyond a certain point the time you'll spend in prison has no effect at all anymore on whether someone will commit a crime or not. What it does though is, that once the crime is done, the criminal is in a position where he has nothing to lose anymore, whatever happens, once he's caught he'll spend his entire life in jail, or is going to be executed, which is only going to make him more ruthless, determined and thus dangerous. Take a close look at the crime statistics in america and compare the states with the death penalty to those without and you'll see that the state with the death penalty have significantly better statistics. You may have to dig a little though, because that's an unpopular fact in the country of limitless possibilities.
Ok, then for-life imprisonment with extremely-harsh conditions and severe torture sessions every other day. Believe me: this might sound extreme, but when you're likely to spend the rest of your life being tortured like that and being underfed but still kept alive just for stealing a few hundred/thousand/million bucks or raping someone you'll think twice before engaging in crime for a living.

Tali said:
What about basic freedoms in your society? Imagine rich parents who want to buy their son a car or something and it's forbidden by your new laws, what then? The Gift-Police shows up and tells them they cant do that and they'll just settle with a pair of shoes or what? That's such an absurd scene it's not even funny.
Also, how would you control that? There's no way of telling who'd use that car, so they'll just buy it in their name and your law is rendered useless, unless you want to hire an army of Gift-Agents
I did mention that it would be hard to take into effect and that i still don't have this fully-contemplated. But it's still unfair that, say, i should receive a car for my birthday (and yes, i did get one in real life) and you shouldn't just because my parents are richer than yours (and i'm not saying they are, and i'm not saying you didn't get a car; it's just an example).

Tali said:
Im sure many people here still remember your psychology thread, where you kept telling us how society wanted to change people to conform with their ideas, how psychiatrists forced treatment on completely healthy citizens and all that
I sincerely fail to see the relevance of that to this thread.

Tali said:
here you stand and tell us how you want to "educate" people and "encourage" (NOT FORCE!) them towards atheism, and all I can think is "What the fuck is wrong with you!?"
I mean, you already demonstrated what you thought of freedom in your new society, but what you try to sell us off as education and the freeing of the spirit from the evil of religion is nothing more than a huge pile of hypocritical bullshit.
You want to lock away anyone who preaches on anyone and forces his views on people, then please tell me, what are you doing? Who and what gives you the right to decide for anyone how they are to live their religion?
That's why i said they wouldn't force atheism on anybody. I think religious beliefs have been proven absurd again and again, and that's why most (not all, and surely not even 90%, but i'm sure they're more than 50%) thinkers are atheists. However, i admit that i wasn't completely sure about this when i re-read my system, and i know that most/all people need something to hold on to in their hard times, so ok, i'll give you complete religious freedom in the form of not encouraging atheism (but not any particular religion either) in schools.

Tali said:
On a sidenote: You should put yourself in your citizens shoes and imagine whether they are happy or not, or you'll have a revolution on your hands really soon.
Good idea, and thanks for mentioning it. Will do.

Tali said:
They should have had better secretaries then
Seriously, research is expensive and even though Im not in favor of large companies locking away their knowledge from the general public, you also have to make sure that those countries get the chance to regain what they invested, otherwise you're gonna KILL research.
For example, it takes up to 800 million dollars to research a new pharmaceutical product and patents simply assure that the money comes flowing back in. I agree that it's perverted not to hand out the medication we have for people suffering from aids in africa for example, but governments could pay for that, or the companies could sell their medecine at reduced prices to those people. There are ways Im sure, the problem is the lack of attention in the media, thus the lack of interest in certain governments.
You said it: Prices should be reduced and researchers should be paid by governments. As far as i know, the way to reduce prices and ensure quality is to allow competition, which patents do not allow. And if researchers are paid (a lot) by governments then they should have no reason to ask for patents and such shit. I know how expensive research can be because i'm told that every day and i've partly lived it (back when i worked at a transgenics lab a few months ago), but there's nothing a prosperous government in a prosperous country can't pay for.
 
rahvin said:
it also has the side effect of making most people miserable.
Or aware that materialism isn't really a good thing.

rahvin said:
one gigantic objection to your plan for an ideal society comes - in my opinion - from the fact that you disregard basic human traits that happen to coincide with the illnesses you want to purge your community from. i've taken the above as an example.
Any other examples besides second-generation problems/solutions (inheritance thing, the above-mentioned example, etc)?

rahvin said:
i'm not going to dispute your right to call certain traits and inclinations wrong or detrimental: you're entitled to think that a lack of envy or greed or any other of the five remaining deadly sins would be the perfect omen for progress and civilization. moreover, you're entitled to wish for progress and civilization as the main goals of your ideal society. it's yours, after all. i'll be happy living elsewhere, and we'll get along tremendously.

what irks me is that you should not ignore that such inclinations/traits/whims are part of the vast majority of individuals, and that depriving them of the capacity to entertain the notion that they are allowed - to a degree - to act upon them is without a doubt going to make them unhappy. which is not ideal, as such.
So you'd rather live in a society that doesn't progress as much as it could because it would rather allow its citizens a few more luxuries/rights/freedoms and thus be left behind in terms of prosperity?

I think that people can get used to anything. And (to prevent Tali from rising with attacks against Stalin again) my goal isn't to force people to get used to horrible inhuman conditions, but to establish a few rules whicdh, i think, would make countries more prosperous and practical than they currently are. Besides, you accuse me of ignoring a few rights and all of you are ignoring the right of everybody to be an equal at birth.

rahvin said:
a desire to win a race based on material possessions, the aim to give one's kids a headstart in this same race, a mindless struggle just for the sake of competition, the near-bloodlust when testing one's strengths against the others' for a prize, these are all features that contribute in defining humanity. rules and limitations are certainly helpful in avoiding a ruthless destruction of humanity itself when such feelings are left unbound, but no suppression or oblivion can ever lead to a greater level of widespread happiness.
Can't a certain (moderated) degree of repression lead to a better society without destroying all happiness? Besides, such limitations might induce a bit of unhappiness in the beginning, but when people see that they avoid the senseless and unjust inequality that exists in today's societies they're bound to become happy again (and even happier than people are today).