¯\(°_o)/¯ How do convince drummer..

[G1]

Situation -
Ive got the chance to record an upcoming band for their new EP / Album / Whatever they release.
I'd really like to try the setup Joeymusicguy uses with triggering up the snare, toms and kick and just recording the cymbals around the kit.
Then to replace the snare etc with SSD or Superior sounds to make sure the sound quality is constant and the production quality is constant also.

My main reason for wanting to do this is because ive never had the chance to practice with micing up a drum kit and i sure as hell dont have the time to try now. I'd rather get the lads in and enjoy the time recording rather than stressing over the fact that the snare sounds hollow or the kick sounds like distressed old fanny.

Yet when i bring up these options in a mature manor and explain my current issue with micing up a drum kit only two people have an issue.

The drummer and the manager. Of which they say the following...


Drummer says;

"I want the songs to sound like i played on them"
"i want it to be my kit"
"i dont like samples"
"i dont like triggers"


Manager says;

" I dont like samples either"
" I want the essence of the band captured on these tracks"


How do I get them to understand that its for the best for both sides without sounding like a stuck up prick.
Im pretty sure they think im just being "lazy" but id rather make sure everything sounds sweet at the end of the day.


....help ?

 

[Arcturian]

What kind of music is it?

If it's metal, tell them that everyone uses triggered bass drums.

 

[G1]

I'd say they're like

Ambient Experimental Metal

 

[LydonB]

In my opinion, if they want you to not use triggers or samples and you don't feel comfortable micing a drum kit, now is the perfect opportunity to get better at doing it. Or come to a compromise and just say you are using triggers (not sure why drummers hate them so much...I doubt the guy even knows what they are/do) but you will not replace anything unless it is necessary.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

tell them 99% of metal drum kits are sampled. it is pretty much the industry norm. either he wants good quality or not.

 

[JeffTD]

Have them give you a list of albums they like the drum sounds on, and then make them eat their words when those albums did undoubtedly have samples used on them.

Or... take samples of his kit, use triggers and whatnot anyway. Tell him you're using the triggers to sidechain to gates and to utilize samples of his own kit for consistency and in case there's too much bleed, a hit is too soft, etc... Then just mix like you normally would (ie with other samples).

 

[BLUElightCory]

You can still mic a kit that has triggers on it. At least that way you'll have a natural snare track to blend with the triggered snare, and the band will be happy. If you don't get experience micing a real drum kit, you're not going to last as an engineer.

 

[KeithRT99]

First of all, FUCK. Second, mic the damn kit. You're never gonna get good at it unless you start doing it. It's really not that hard, put some mics up and listen to how it sounds. If it sounds bad, move the mic.

Also I think you're wasting your time arguing with closed-minded musicians over samples. I'm sure if you asked him what his favorite sounding metal albums are, they would all have samples. Mic the kit, and if it's unusable use samples. OR you could just blend samples in, and then when they approve of the sound tell them there's samples in there and they're a bunch of bitches.

 

[crazykarl]

Don't forget, you're recording them. If that's not their vibe, then that's not their vibe. There's plenty of times I've had to do things I thought would sound like shit, but in the end it made the recording. It was their sound on their songs. Read some Steve Albini interviews, get into the mind set of being the "recordist" as well as being the studio guy. Granted some of Steve's stuff sounds pretty out there, but he has some really good ideals. Learning to record is all about going out of your comfort zone.

 

[HandsOfDespair]

First of all, FUCK. Second, mic the damn kit. You're never gonna get good at it unless you start doing it. It's really not that hard, put some mics up and listen to how it sounds. If it sounds bad, move the mic.

Also I think you're wasting your time arguing with closed-minded musicians over samples. I'm sure if you asked him what his favorite sounding metal albums are, they would all have samples. Mic the kit, and if it's unusable use samples. OR you could just blend samples in, and then when they approve of the sound tell them there's samples in there and they're a bunch of bitches.

+1.

Natural drum sounds have so much more personality. At least try to mic the kit, and replace only if it sounds bad. Triggering the kick is normal in metal IMO, but for the rest, if you can use the miced kit or samples of the drumkit then go for it.

 

[egan.]

What everybody else said...skip the argument and use mics and triggers. Explain the triggers are for sidechaining or "just in case" if you have to. It's not like you can't sample replace either way.
IMO one of the most important skills in recording is your ability to compromise and still get your way. You absolutely are not going to win the argument-- with the band or in a forum -- so throw up some mics and then do whatever you have to make the mix great.

 

[Nebulous]

My main reason for wanting to do this is because ive never had the chance to practice with micing up a drum kit and i sure as hell dont have the time to try now. I'd rather get the lads in and enjoy the time recording rather than stressing over the fact that the snare sounds hollow or the kick sounds like distressed old fanny.

Call me crazy, but isn't this why they would be hiring you: to fuss over the sound and capture their performance?
Fuck their "enjoyment". If they want a professional sound then they can expect to go to a studio, act like professionals, play well and not like dicks the whole time. Get the job done.

 

[Fox Mulder]

+1.

Natural drum sounds have so much more personality. At least try to mic the kit, and replace only if it sounds bad. Triggering the kick is normal in metal IMO, but for the rest, if you can use the miced kit or samples of the drumkit then go for it.

+1000
IMHO even though some drummers are fine with triggers/replacement, if some drummer refuses to use them he/she is just being passionate towards the music. Mic the kit, play around with the mic positions, play around with the tunings, try different sticks, mark a sweet spot on the snare, make the drummer sniff coke, etc till it sounds good. If nothing works replace them later on without telling them. If you replace them with nice, dynamic samples chances are they wouldn't even notice that you replaced. Sure, it's gonna get hard without triggers but it ain't impossible.

I'm not too sure, but I think Disturbed's "Indestructible" and System of a Down's "Toxicity" were done with no replacement at all.

 

[beyond dead]

What everybody else said...skip the argument and use mics and triggers. Explain the triggers are for sidechaining or "just in case" if you have to. It's not like you can't sample replace either way.
IMO one of the most important skills in recording is your ability to compromise and still get your way. You absolutely are not going to win the argument-- with the band or in a forum -- so throw up some mics and then do whatever you have to make the mix great.

fuck yeah! If you throw on new skins, and tune the drums at least half d, you will be surprised how good it will sound!

 

[DanLights]

Do the effort to mic it up, in the end if it didn't sound good you can always replace them anyway, or blend them with samples, no need for triggers IMO. maybe they won't even notice you replaced them, you can say you eq'd the drums to make them sound better hahaha

 

[BLOODROOT]

tell them 99% of metal drum kits are sampled. it is pretty much the industry norm. either he wants good quality or not.

I would drumagog his crap with slate samples.
Just record his crappy drum set the way he wants. When he comes back the next day show him the difference between his shit untunes tone def kit to your nice drumagog mix.

 

[paladin shredder]

I'm surprised no one has asked this, but what kind of drum set would you be micing?

if "their sound" is a pearl export kit with 2 year old drum heads, i would definately trigger that without question.

however, if they have something like a dw, you would be foolish not to mic that!

also, i always mic the snare if i'm triggering it or not. you can loose the players style when you don't at least mic the snare.

 

[Soundlurker]

Record the drums, record samples of the kit "for editing purposes" and if need be use them instead of the original drums. If it's a really nasty kit + room + studio then just record it and use other samples.

If the kit's good you should definitely try your best at recording it. I'm always happy to attend drum sessions since I can record them the way I want, and it's so much easier during mixing.

 

[Ermz]

What's the situation? Does the drummer have a good kit, does he play well and consistently enough to get by without augmentation, how good is the live room & how good is the recording gear?

If you are intent on using trigger pads then simply ask the drummer what his favourite metal drum sounds are. After receiving his answer promptly inform him that there were samples used (because there's about a 99% chance that this would be the case, regardless of his choice). If he still intends on recording his own kit then just get on with it and at least understand that you will learn something through the process.

You have to understand that recording a real kit is desirable. Learning to do it is a boon for you. Leaning on the Slate pack to get half your drum sound for you will leave you with one arm tied behind your back for your entire career. Using trigger pads and samples should be a very last resort, for when the band is on a severely restricted budget and you still want to get some radio-ready sounds.

So many people want shortcuts these days, because we are blessed to have amazing tools like the Slate samples, impulses and repositories of knowledge like this one within arm's reach. NONE of it is a substitute for solid engineering knowledge and you can always hear when someone has started to run before they could walk, so to speak.

 

[G1]

Whoa !

I wake up this morning to more posts and replies than i thought i'd receive!

I have been told that the drummer is a very confident one, not cocky but knows his own ability inside out.
I'm not sure about the kit as Im waiting to find out if he's getting a new one or not.

I think what I shall have to do is get some late nights in and get a friends drum kit in and spend some time playing around with mic positioning etc.
While using triggers if i think there are points when i think samples should be blended in or if my micing skills aren't jsut right.

I do reckon i'll ask the drummer about his favorite albums and see if i can explain how sampling and triggering can be helpful rather than trying to hinder his performance.

Has anyone else come up against this situation before ?