¯\(°_o)/¯ How do convince drummer..

[Ermz]

There really isn't much to drumkit recording. 90% of it is in the drummer, kit, tuning and the room. You just have to work around it and capture that performance in time as faithfully as you can. The hardest part can be the overhead placement. You can look at basically any metal recording photo and you'll see the snare and tom mic positions are like 90% the same. It's the tone of the drum and the tuning that creates what the mic tends to hear. If it sounds like turd in the room, then you have no chance without samples.

So work on your overhead placement most of all, try to retain a decent kit stereo image and pleasant, smooth cymbal sounds. After that just make sure you are acquainted with drum tuning and instruct the drummer to hit hard and hit consistently as it's crucial to retaining a natural sound without having to resort to samples.

 

[Seizure.]

What Ermin said.

And if a band wants a natural sound you should respect that i guess.
Else they got the wrong engineer or you started working with the wrong band.

If by Ambient Experimental Metal you mean something like Cult Of Luna.. SSD's will ruin the production

 

[GeertSamuel]

If by Ambient Experimental Metal you mean something like Cult Of Luna.. SSD's will ruin the production

+1

 

[drew_drummer]

Do they have a Myspace link with some demos?

 

[doclegion]

Situation -
Ive got the chance to record an upcoming band for their new EP / Album / Whatever they release.
I'd really like to try the setup Joeymusicguy uses with triggering up the snare, toms and kick and just recording the cymbals around the kit.
Then to replace the snare etc with SSD or Superior sounds to make sure the sound quality is constant and the production quality is constant also.

My main reason for wanting to do this is because ive never had the chance to practice with micing up a drum kit and i sure as hell dont have the time to try now. I'd rather get the lads in and enjoy the time recording rather than stressing over the fact that the snare sounds hollow or the kick sounds like distressed old fanny.

Yet when i bring up these options in a mature manor and explain my current issue with micing up a drum kit only two people have an issue.

The drummer and the manager. Of which they say the following...


Drummer says;

"I want the songs to sound like i played on them"
"i want it to be my kit"
"i dont like samples"
"i dont like triggers"


Manager says;

" I dont like samples either"
" I want the essence of the band captured on these tracks"


How do I get them to understand that its for the best for both sides without sounding like a stuck up prick.
Im pretty sure they think im just being "lazy" but id rather make sure everything sounds sweet at the end of the day.


....help ?

First off.... Joey isn't the only guy to approach these techniques

second, if thats how you wanna work, then thats how you wanna work.... period they need to understand that


he/your is not triggering, you using the trigger to record!! Tell them its like getting a DI signal for drums to blend with the mics to add attack to the over all kit and reduce bleed (they will never know, but down the road they will be like )

samples?? I dont like using that word because it sounds like you making drum beats for them or something hahaha

tell them that your gonna make his kit sound badass and get their trust


Thats about it??...If not???

If they really have a problem, then its gonna be a problem and they might be up ur ass and that might not be worth bothering IMO

 

[Styvo]

Seize the chance to improve your skills man,mic the kit and trigger it,regardless of end result,you'll be better off for it in year to come.

 

[nwright]

Has anyone else come up against this situation before ?

I've dealt with it in about every project I've done. But I don't use triggers. I usually will blend samples with the miked tones I get...Prior to recording I'll ask bands how they feel about them, and all but maybe 1 or 2 bands have said they'd "prefer" not to use them...So, I just use mics...and then blend or replace later.

For every band that wants no triggers, I advise them to get new heads (type, etc.) and make sure they know how to tune their kit, etc...And I've yet to record a band who does any of it. I will usually have each session templated prior to the band coming in, so on these bands with crap kits, I'll plug drumagog on the tom and snare tracks before we start, set with a low blend % and stock samples. This way on playback they hear the miked tones with a blend of sample buried underneath, so it sounds good to them off the bat. Only in mixing do I decide if the samples are actually needed. In most cases they are, as I don't have the greatest mics, and the rooms are usually pretty bad sounding. I tend to concentrate more on overheads right now until I can get into a facility that makes it worthwhile to REALLY hone my miking skills with quality mics. Right now, I tend to concentrate on cutting bleed more so than finding the sweet spot.

 

[Executioner213]

You have the toss-up of two scenarios:
1. They came to you because they feel your abilities to get a sound they want are met better than through others.
2. They have to make what they want sound the way they want it, which is apparently like you can do already.

It's unrealistic. You have to make them happy in the end, and if sampling the kit and proving them wrong in the end is how to do it, so be it.


You could always set it so the samples are playing in thier headphones (assuming you do it right) while tracking, so you have the argument of "you hit it, it sounds like that".

 

[egan.]

Nate describes a good non-confrontational system above.

I've got to say though, I am totally comfortable with triggers, replacement, and extreme processing. I don't think anyone can rightfully accuse me of being ignorant of the modern recording process. However, if you argued with me about whether or not you were going to put mics on the drum kit I would simply take my money elsewhere. I'm not trying to be a jerk (and I tried to be diplomatic in my first post), but if I was the client and you can't mic a kit and an amp then we don't have any more business to discuss.

 

[Dimaura]

was " I payed for the drums, I want to hear them" one of the lines? haha.

If you have the inputs doming bnoth is the way to go for so many reasons. Everyone is happy and you have options.

 

[GarethSE]

Yeah
mic the kit
take samples
use triggers
Do whatever the fuck you want to them and tell them you used the real drums
90% of musicians will believe anything you tell them
the other 10% know youre talking absolute bullshit and will let it fly because they're not ignorant cunts

give yourself options

 

[PhilR]

Bloody hell, no offense, but some of you guys need an ego check.

When you have a solid reputation based on a consistent body of high-quality work then maybe you can say "my way" to everyone that walks in your door. But you know what? One story I keep hearing over and over is that of bands who went to other studios and were faced with working with a guy who insisted "my way". And you know what the common thread among all of them was? They never wanted to go back.

Just mic up the damn drums. Do your best to get good sounds and if they aren't good enough, then mix in some samples. Why do people always start with the assumption that nobody is good enough to be recorded eu natural? Remember people, like it or not running a recording studio is a fucking service industry and the customer gets to have first say. Deny this essential fact and you'll likely be saying "my way" in your basements and bedrooms for ever.

 

[Notuern]

If someone told you to record your tracks using a midi-guitar to get a more consistent quality, would you do it?
I sure as hell wouldn't..

 

[beyond dead]

B

When you have a solid reputation based on a consistent body of high-quality work then maybe you can say "my way" to everyone that walks in your door. But you know what? One story I keep hearing over and over is that of bands who went to other studios and were faced with working with a guy who insisted "my way". And you know what the common thread among all of them was? They never wanted to go back.

Just mic up the damn drums. Do your best to get good sounds and if they aren't good enough, then mix in some samples. Why do people always start with the assumption that nobody is good enough to be recorded eu natural? Remember people, like it or not running a recording studio is a fucking service industry and the customer gets to have first say. Deny this essential fact and you'll likely be saying "my way" in your basements and bedrooms for ever.

I will say I agree about 90 % with this. I think If you have a decent reputation with the bands, they will trust you and will feel comfortable with your decisions during the recording process. but part of this is accommodating their vision and ideas because they are paying customers that are paying for you to capture THEIR music the way they intended it to sound. period. and if that doesnt happen, they wont come back!

 

[beyond dead]

but, this is an audio engineer forum, so it is a nice place to rant about how cliche musicians lack of knowledge can be

 

[axeman720]

Situation -
Ive got the chance to record an upcoming band for their new EP / Album / Whatever they release.
I'd really like to try the setup Joeymusicguy uses with triggering up the snare, toms and kick and just recording the cymbals around the kit.
Then to replace the snare etc with SSD or Superior sounds to make sure the sound quality is constant and the production quality is constant also.

My main reason for wanting to do this is because ive never had the chance to practice with micing up a drum kit and i sure as hell dont have the time to try now. I'd rather get the lads in and enjoy the time recording rather than stressing over the fact that the snare sounds hollow or the kick sounds like distressed old fanny.

Yet when i bring up these options in a mature manor and explain my current issue with micing up a drum kit only two people have an issue.

The drummer and the manager. Of which they say the following...


Drummer says;

"I want the songs to sound like i played on them"
"i want it to be my kit"
"i dont like samples"
"i dont like triggers"


Manager says;

" I dont like samples either"
" I want the essence of the band captured on these tracks"


How do I get them to understand that its for the best for both sides without sounding like a stuck up prick.
Im pretty sure they think im just being "lazy" but id rather make sure everything sounds sweet at the end of the day.


....help ?

This is where you tell the manager and drummer that in a real world recording situation he needs nothing short of a FANTASTIC drum kit with brand new heads that is tuned incredibly well and it will be your responsibility and or the drum techs to make sure it stays in tune throughout the session. Oh and a great drummer...

You will also need a room that actually sound good with a kit in it, a good selection of mics and an even better selection of mic preamps. And a good day or so to tune the kit, mic it, check the lines and get drums sounds.

Then you explain to them how much that will cost, why it costs that much and why they have no idea how a recording session works or what it takes to get "the real essence" (or should i say the "essence the band sees themselves as") of a band in a recording.

And then you can tell the manager to shut the fuck up, because even though there is some great managers, we are not telling them how to manage their band and they should not tell us how they see the recording going for us.

Period.

Or just tell em to go somewhere where they will mic his likely horribly tuned kit and have fun!

 

[Jaymz]

Its funny because around here its the opposite....if you got triggers at your disposel drummers are like "OMG!!! Clicky clicky bass drum!!! Like Trivium, yeah me want, use now GO!" etc etc...

 

[axeman720]

Bloody hell, no offense, but some of you guys need an ego check.

When you have a solid reputation based on a consistent body of high-quality work then maybe you can say "my way" to everyone that walks in your door. But you know what? One story I keep hearing over and over is that of bands who went to other studios and were faced with working with a guy who insisted "my way". And you know what the common thread among all of them was? They never wanted to go back.

Just mic up the damn drums. Do your best to get good sounds and if they aren't good enough, then mix in some samples. Why do people always start with the assumption that nobody is good enough to be recorded eu natural? Remember people, like it or not running a recording studio is a fucking service industry and the customer gets to have first say. Deny this essential fact and you'll likely be saying "my way" in your basements and bedrooms for ever.

Because most people arent good enough. Especially not good enough to sound the way they want.

 

[beyond dead]

Its funny because around here its the opposite....if you got triggers at your disposel drummers are like "OMG!!! Clicky clicky bass drum!!! Like Trivium, yeah me want, use now GO!" etc etc...

same here. no one really argues against triggers.

and im not too hurting for their money, so dickweeds can take a hike!

 

[Fox Mulder]

If someone told you to record your tracks using a midi-guitar to get a more consistent quality, would you do it?
I sure as hell wouldn't..

I wouldn't be surprised if Herman Li demanded that.


Back on topic: I think some of you are brainstorming about the whole situation a bit more than necessary. Mic the kit. If shit happens then go through a little pain of replacing them. If the drummer is feeling uncomfortable using triggers, either don't use it, or find a way to convince him.