808s and Sub hits...

R

ryanojohn

Member
Dec 18, 2006
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So I've got a track I'm working on, and the guys in the band want the sub hits to hit harder... I'm trying to figure it out, and any louder and they start to distort. I kinda like it subtle anyways...:goggly:lol

How do you guys mix in things like this? Do you duck the bass out of everything else when the hit happens?

http://www.ryanojohn.com/mp3/01 Ash and Grace.mp3
Hits are at 1:27...:zombie:
 
Sounds fine to me, but I'm guessing they want it how it sounds on most albums.... More up front.... Did you try messing with MaxxBass or something on it, it brings out the subharmonics without overloading it.... Might work....
 
I don't actually have MaxxBass, but I'll see if I can bring it somewhere that does and give that a shot... are there any versions of something similar (RTAS preferably, but AU, or VST would work) that'd work?

And damn that euro sample is brutal... feels like an earthquake... I'll try that one out lol
 
The Sub drop soudns kidna subtle as you 've already said...

The song sounds killer to me... Very punchy and in your face production. I dig the singing and the drums. The song itself is not that "awesome" to me (no riff i will rememebr for weeks in there) but it's still quite good and catchy.
 
If you want it to hit harder (with more punch) put a compressor on it, and set the attack time somewhere like 30 to 40ms (maybe longer), and get a good amount of reduction going (5-6db). This will increase the initial hit, and make it sound more aggressive.
 
derfbonker said:
If you want it to hit harder (with more punch) put a compressor on it, and set the attack time somewhere like 30 to 40ms (maybe longer), and get a good amount of reduction going (5-6db). This will increase the initial hit, and make it sound more aggressive.
Click to expand...

If you REALLY want it to hit hard, leave more headroom for it and make the song more dynamic...

loudnesswar.jpg

and the answer is.... the original version, when they are both set to same listening volume. See the spikes on the original version? thats drums and thats called dynamics. And even if you are doing metal, dynamics arent bad, listen to any Tool album for example.
 
You'll get no argument from this bunch on the virtues of dynamics, ahjteam, but I for one don't think Tool is the best example of the kind of metal we tend to focus on here - still though, cool graph and info.
 
First thing I said to the guys was "I can make those sub hits bigger if we bring down everything else a bit..." their immediate response was "no way..."

I'm gonna give some of these ideas a shot today.

Vocals we simply a 58, compressed very hard ITB with the API2500. No drum samples in this at all, amps are a marshall superlead and a mesa dual rec.

Thanks much for the ideas, I'll let you know how they work out later today!
 
i sometime get the same problem with subdrops not being punchy enough but what i found works well is to import a punchy, quite clicky, kick drum and put a massive verb on it. and place it under the sub to play at the same time. make sure all the tracks look in phase at the point of impact.
 
Sidechain the whole mix or the drum, bass & guitar groups so they get ducked when the sub hits.

Also a good idea is to keep all your instruments going to busses (like mentioned above) where you apply compression/limiting/etc. An instrument like a subkick will eat up your headroom instantly if you send it to one of these groups that get limited or compressed. So make an extra group and send the subkick there so that it doesn't directly affect your drums or bass.

Finally, to make the subkick appear more prominent, you need to bring out the UPPER harmonics, not the subharmonics as Wolfeman suggested (maybe he meant the same thing, but phrased it differently). The subkick is usually *felt* because it is so low. So to make it *heard* you have to bring out the higher frequencies that it has. A good trick for this is to set up an Aux send with a limiter like the Waves L1 and send the subkick there. Then totally crush it (-20db or more!) and it will instantly bring out the upper harmonics. Now you can just hipass that return channel to avoid bass buildup and lower or raise the fader to add as much of the upper harmonics as you like.

Hope this helps!
 
ahjteam said:
If you REALLY want it to hit hard, leave more headroom for it and make the song more dynamic...

loudnesswar.jpg

and the answer is.... the original version, when they are both set to same listening volume. See the spikes on the original version? thats drums and thats called dynamics. And even if you are doing metal, dynamics arent bad, listen to any Tool album for example.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. If you lower the volume of the whole mix, the bass drop will deffinetly hit harder. I was under the assumption that he wanted to make the actual bass drop punchier.
 
ryanojohn said:
First thing I said to the guys was "I can make those sub hits bigger if we bring down everything else a bit..." their immediate response was "no way..."
Click to expand...

Thats strange, usually people say something along the lines of "do whatever you need to do, if it makes it sound better". They might not come to think that the listeners usually choose their preferred listening volume (eg. I tend to listen those old Black Sabbath albums with my amplifiers level at 60, but listen to modern albums at 50 level), so turning everything else down doesn't really make them quieter, it just gives the subdrop room to be louder.

And keep in mind that you should keep the mastering and mixing process separate (if possible, the only thing that should be on the way is lack of time, nothing else), so just make it sound as good as possible, you should plenty of headroom for that. If you do not have the headroom (the audio is clipping or peaking agains the limiter), turn your speakers louder until it starts to hurt your ears so HAVE to do drop the volume and you'll have the headroom :) So turn the speakers a tad louder, DO the volumedrop, bring up the sub and ask if the subdrop is better now. If its not, put it back the way it was and ask "so does this sound better?". It might be only case of 2-3dBs, but it can make a huge difference.
 
smy1 said:
Sidechain the whole mix or the drum, bass & guitar groups so they get ducked when the sub hits.

Also a good idea is to keep all your instruments going to busses (like mentioned above) where you apply compression/limiting/etc. An instrument like a subkick will eat up your headroom instantly if you send it to one of these groups that get limited or compressed. So make an extra group and send the subkick there so that it doesn't directly affect your drums or bass.

Finally, to make the subkick appear more prominent, you need to bring out the UPPER harmonics, not the subharmonics as Wolfeman suggested (maybe he meant the same thing, but phrased it differently). The subkick is usually *felt* because it is so low. So to make it *heard* you have to bring out the higher frequencies that it has. A good trick for this is to set up an Aux send with a limiter like the Waves L1 and send the subkick there. Then totally crush it (-20db or more!) and it will instantly bring out the upper harmonics. Now you can just hipass that return channel to avoid bass buildup and lower or raise the fader to add as much of the upper harmonics as you like.

Hope this helps!
Click to expand...

i have been parallel compressing my sub hits to the same buss as the kick and have had decent results, but i like the sound of this technique better... well i mean i like the sound of READING it, i have to try this tomorrow. I'm producing a band who wants bass drops in like, every friggin song, and with my method you can definitely FEEL them (in the control room and in the car, etc) but hearing them in the mix is another story. the uppharmonics idea with the L1 and a highpass is a great idea though! I want those listeners on laptops and small computer speakers to know the hit is there without it making that godawful headroom crushing noise. :) thanks!
 
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